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Post by VectorX on May 23, 2013 11:31:57 GMT -5
Well, not quite, but this VectorVGA company makes some kind of devices that will convert raster to vector, along with other stuff that will broadcast a vector display onto another one, like a tv (!), and a new raster monitor that is compatible with the monitors originally used with Tempest, Space Duel, Gravitar, Black Widow and Quantum! Added to the first page of the vector links thread too (MANDATORY!!)  |
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Post by TrekMD on May 23, 2013 16:11:09 GMT -5
That sounds pretty nifty!
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Post by VectorX on May 23, 2013 16:30:05 GMT -5
I'm a little suspicious of places that don't have a single listing of their prices anywhere though. But I guess just do your usual research to see what their BBB rating is and such before doing any deals with them.
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Post by gliptitude on May 23, 2013 21:23:27 GMT -5
Seems to take a bit of the fun out of vector games to convert them to raster, no?
I wonder how common this is? Both of the Tempest machines that I have seen recently looked like raster displays.
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Post by VectorX on May 23, 2013 21:28:52 GMT -5
Seems to take a bit of the fun out of vector games to convert them to raster, no? They're not converted to raster, I think their stuff just makes the vectors look as close to as possible to the original vector monitors as they did back in the day. The site has a video where a guy's Tempest game is shown on a nearby tv, and it doesn't look raster. |
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Post by gliptitude on May 23, 2013 21:50:37 GMT -5
Seems to take a bit of the fun out of vector games to convert them to raster, no? They're not converted to raster, I think their stuff just makes the vectors look as close to as possible to the original vector monitors as they did back in the day. The site has a video where a guy's Tempest game is shown on a nearby tv, and it doesn't look raster. I didn't watch the video because my internet is very slow, but this is a direct quotation from the page: "VectorVGA Tempest allows you to replace your broken Wells-Gardner 6100 or Amplifone vector monitor with a newer, reliable raster monitor." |
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Post by VectorX on May 23, 2013 22:01:29 GMT -5
Well, it doesn't take any "fun" out of it, as working vector monitors are hard to come by, to put it that way. I imagine most people don't have much of a choice, and with how fairly decent vectors can look on like retina displays, this could be a pretty good bet for them to look pretty decent.
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Post by celtroniclabs on May 24, 2013 5:33:27 GMT -5
Gliptitude is correct. The device converts the vector output, to raster, for display on a raster monitor. The end result does not look like the lines on a vector monitor. I watched the video..
VectorX mentioned how decent vector lines can look on Retina LCD Displays. He is correct there! I have recently added Native Retina iPad support to my Xtreme Beam app as part of an update I am working on. Before my recent modifications, I thought my vector lines looked pretty good.. On the Retina iPad3 and 4, they now look even better! The color saturation of the iPad 4 screen is also much higher and brighter than my old iPad1 screen. Especially when comparing Red, Orange, Yellow and Pink colors.
On the current version of my app the vector lines are rendered using a 768x768 addressable point grid. On Retina iPads they were being scaled up 200% after rendering. The new version will actually render all vector lines on a 1536x1536 addressable point grid, natively, with no up-scaling afterwards. The visual difference between the two is drastic. Cinematronics vector hardware, for example, used a 1024x768 addressable grid.
Not being able to see the individual pixels on that Retina display, along with the super high resolution, really give it a good vector monitor look. The only thing that is now lacking is the intense brightness of the old CRT vector monitors, especially of single points (which were actually created by drawing a line using the same starting and ending vertex points, a line of zero distance). The lines are close, but the points are still lacking in intensity compared to the real thing.
I played a vintage Asteroids cabinet in San Francisco, in late March, at the GDC convention and my lines are smoother than those the Asteroids machine was producing. The cabinet definitely was using a vector monitor because the single points were far too intense in brightness to be raster. I also played a Vectrex console that was at the convention. The Vectrex monitor had far more flicker than the Asteroids monitor. Strangely, the Asteroids monitor did exhibit a bit of a stair-step aliasing to the vector lines. I didn't remember it being that way from years ago.. Last time I had played one was in 1996
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Post by VectorX on May 24, 2013 8:09:52 GMT -5
^Sounds like the next thing to do would be to have Atari vector games being shown on a large retina display to come as close as possible to match the old vector displays. Plus these guys need to expand to make additional gadgets work with Cinematronics vector monitors (although I don't know if a "one size fits all" option like their current Atari model is possible) and Sega games too. |
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Post by gliptitude on May 24, 2013 19:26:44 GMT -5
I agree it's cool to see this support for the old machines to stay alive. Also it would be TOTALLY awesome if this led to new and widely distributed vector themed multi-cabs, like you see all over for raster Atari, Namco etc. I agree Cinematronics support would be great, (although I don't understand the difference, why it wouldn't be compatible). Imagine a complete Cinematronics library multicab, and people actually playing it! Still though, you have to admit, a real vector monitor would be even sweeter. |
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Post by VectorX on May 24, 2013 21:05:00 GMT -5
I agree Cinematronics support would be great, (although I don't understand the difference, why it wouldn't be compatible). It could have totally different wiring and all. I'm on a local gaming e-mailing group (the one where I've been to many of their annual gaming expos before), and people send out tech questions to the group needing help about pinball and video games all the time. You'd think there isn't much to monitors--and I suppose there isn't, unlike with video and especially pinball games--but I've seen e-mails before with people saying they can fix pretty much any problem with a video game but they didn't know squat about monitors. And with this company only stating that their monitors are compatible with Atari vector games, I'm pretty sure (although I'll admit that I'm guessing) that means there is a difference, or else they would be missing out on a decent chunk of the vector market by not mentioning the Cinematronics, Sega and Midway vector games (and whoever else I'm forgetting...Rock-Ola distributed the cockpit version of Tailgunner 2, for example). Still though, you have to admit, a real vector monitor would be even sweeter. Unfortunately there would only be a niche market for one, of course...or maybe they could advertise for a while on as many gaming web sites as possible in case they were going to make new ones, but then that would only be money for a couple of years, maybe five at best before sales cooled back off (if they even lasted for that long). That, or make a modern day Vectrex compatible with the old (which is a thread I've been meaning to do forever). |
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Post by celtroniclabs on Jan 3, 2014 4:01:39 GMT -5
I played a vintage Asteroids cabinet in San Francisco, in late March, at the GDC convention and my lines are smoother than those the Asteroids machine was producing. The cabinet definitely was using a vector monitor because the single points were far too intense in brightness to be raster. I also played a Vectrex console that was at the convention. The Vectrex monitor had far more flicker than the Asteroids monitor. Strangely, the Asteroids monitor did exhibit a bit of a stair-step aliasing to the vector lines. I didn't remember it being that way from years ago.. Last time I had played one was in 1996 I read some very good information, yesterday, written by ex-Atari employee, Jed Margolin. I found it, via a link on another thread in this forum, to his story about the Atari Tomcat 3D vector prototype game. Anyway, within his other article titled, "The Secret Life of Vector Generators", he explains why the Asteroids machine, I played this past March, displayed aliased vector lines. Atari used two different Vector Generators in their XY games. The first, a Digital Vector Generator, does indeed produced stair-stepped vector lines on the CRT screen. The Digital Vector Generator was used in their first three vector games; Lunar Lander, Asteroids and Asteroids Deluxe. Starting with Battlezone, in November 1980, they switched to an Analog Vector Generator, which produced smooth vector lines. In contrast the Cinematronics Vector Generator produced smooth vector lines from day one, starting with Space Wars, in October 1977, when it debuted at AMOA. That article has a wealth of great technical info within it! I found that one an even more interesting read than the one on the Tomcat game.. |
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