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Post by gliptitude on May 20, 2014 16:14:38 GMT -5
Well not sure it should be called "scrolling" in these examples, but it is more these simple(?) 3D effects I am interested in. This video is a collection of the few examples I have access to in which the simplest possible vector objects (DOTS) are used to convey space and depth, by manipulating the speed and trajectory of their movements: www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpTZ2lfzh8MThe first few are Vectrex programs and the last is the Atari Star Wars game. .. None of these Vectrex examples are actual in-game graphics. (Star Wars of course IS). Would it be incredibly difficult to integrate Star Wars-style star backgrounds in a Vectrex game? Is it really necessary that the whole game environment be mapped in three dimensions to get this effect? Is Star Wars most likely designed and programmed in three dimensions, or is it possibly just a representation of three dimensions, (as in Web Wars, Starhawk etc, I presume)? .. As far as I can tell from playing the game, this background movement in Star Wars is completely independent of any player controlled movements, and because there is no visible ground or horizon but only floating objects, I would think the designers had a lot of room to fudge spacial reality. (For example at the beginnings of waves 1 and 3 in the video, space appears to be curling underneath the player's ship. It looks unrealistic to me, but also beautiful.) .. I suppose parallax scrolling could be done with just dots more easily than this perspective view stuff, but that is not my interest. Anyone else find this interesting or have any special insight? Any more examples of this in different games?
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Post by VectorX on May 20, 2014 16:56:41 GMT -5
Any more examples of this in different games? Space Frenzy has a little bit of that, although it's a bit slower than M. Storms' and Star Wars' effects.
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Post by mikiex on May 20, 2014 17:20:32 GMT -5
3d starfields is what they used to be called. you could just have dots moving at different speeds from the center of the screen, but the effect won't look right. Alex Herberts on the vecflash cart loader looks the most correct I have seen on the vectrex. I'm assuming its calculated an not just an animation... Hugo Elias had a good example ... freespace.virgin.net/hugo.elias/graphics/x_stars.htmyou will notice to get the 3d effect you need to use a z coordinate and to get the x,y of the star. Also Hugos code being aimed at the PC uses divides without an concern. I would be interest to know how it was done on the vecflash an/or some tips on how to implement it in 6809.
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Post by binarystar on May 20, 2014 17:39:15 GMT -5
Yeah, just place some dots and scale their coordinates out from the center ofbthe screen. Dots should move at a faster rate as they approach the viewer for proper effect.
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Post by gliptitude on May 20, 2014 17:57:19 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies guys. .. On a related subject I once devised a single three dimensional movement for an Art Master animation, (demonstrating a Vectrex game concept): www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d4iOpI2IkYObviously there was no z-axis as the graphics were not coded and I didn't even have precise access to y and x coordinates. But basically i plotted the 2D shape on graph paper, drafted the perspective view of the same shape using "perspective projection" drawing methods, and then copied the two on sight with the Light Pen. .. I think the effect is fairly convincing. So why couldn't similar things be done with star fields? (Especially if they are just backgrounds, independent of the other game objects, like in Star Wars). Basically figure out how they should move in 3 dimensions, (using more powerful hardware and software possibly) and then simply plot them in the correct 2D locations in my game program? Yeah, just place some dots and scale their coordinates out from the center ofbthe screen. Dots should move at a faster rate as they approach the viewer for proper effect. I was imagining more complicated movents, spinning and shifting like in Star Wars.
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Post by gliptitude on May 20, 2014 18:35:45 GMT -5
3d starfields is what they used to be called. you could just have dots moving at different speeds from the center of the screen, but the effect won't look right. Alex Herberts on the vecflash cart loader looks the most correct I have seen on the vectrex. I'm assuming its calculated an not just an animation... Hugo Elias had a good example ... freespace.virgin.net/hugo.elias/graphics/x_stars.htmyou will notice to get the 3d effect you need to use a z coordinate and to get the x,y of the star. Also Hugos code being aimed at the PC uses divides without an concern. I would be interest to know how it was done on the vecflash an/or some tips on how to implement it in 6809. Thanks for the link. Also knowing the common term now "3D starfields" makes this fairly easy to find a variety of information.
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Post by 50tbrd on May 21, 2014 0:21:39 GMT -5
Definitely needed if anyone ever does a Tac Scan clone.
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Post by mikiex on May 21, 2014 6:35:26 GMT -5
Yeah, just place some dots and scale their coordinates out from the center ofbthe screen. Dots should move at a faster rate as they approach the viewer for proper effect. when you scale them linearly using the hardware scale setting it actually gets slower as it gets bigger, well anyway when I tried something similar ages ago with a square. but you want the dots to get faster
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Post by binarystar on May 21, 2014 9:20:28 GMT -5
I knocked up a quick test 3d starfield, you can check out the ROM below. OK so far, I'll post (messy) source once I'm happier with it. Each 'star' (64 of them) uses 6 bytes (x,y,z,speed) so its not the most efficient implementation, but it works. <edit> Now attached improved starfield ROM. Analog stick allows you to move the starfield forwards, back, left and right. Attachments:3DSF_Test4.BIN (1.06 KB)
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Post by gliptitude on May 21, 2014 14:06:30 GMT -5
Hey cool. I didn't imagine this would result in test programs for Vectrex. .. I'll have to get my other computer out later to download this.
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Post by xefned on May 21, 2014 17:13:42 GMT -5
Wow, just looked over your videos Gliptitude. Astral Clewe looks like a super ambitious project. Impressive!
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Post by gliptitude on May 22, 2014 14:26:42 GMT -5
Wow, just looked over your videos Gliptitude. Astral Clewe looks like a super ambitious project. Impressive! Yeh thanks. Those are just videos made with Art Master / Animaction though. No program exists. .. Also this starfield stuff does not directly pertain to Astral-Clewe. But I just linked the one video here because it was an example of "cheating" 3 dimensional movement.
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Post by binarystar on May 22, 2014 16:40:10 GMT -5
I have attached source code for the simple pseudo-3d starfield effect I linked above. Its a little quick-and-dirty but I think the effect looks pretty convincing (especially on Vectrex). Should be easy enough to tweak for your own purposes. I make no claims that this is the best or most efficient way to do a starfield but it was the simplest way that came into my head when I saw this thread I have made a few annotations to help you understand what I'm doing here but if you have any questions - just ask. Attachments:3DStars.asm (23.3 KB)
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Post by gliptitude on May 23, 2014 14:31:04 GMT -5
Excellent. Thanks binarystar. .. I did download and test on Vectrex and I agree it looks convincing. Now I'll have to get the downloading computer back to the internet to view this .asm. .. This will hopefully help me understand, but i was really looking for the twists and turns that i haven't seen yet on Vectrex. .. I checked Star Fire Spirits and that game does have kind of a navigable starfield, player controlled left, right, up and down. It looks pretty decent but not mind blowing and no twists. Eh the rest of the graphics in that game kind of detract from the starfield in my opinion though.
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Post by 50tbrd on May 25, 2014 13:05:47 GMT -5
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