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Post by gliptitude on Jan 29, 2013 19:20:51 GMT -5
I'm wondering how broadly others identify games as "Asteroids-like", and what your opinions are. One of my younger friends seems to view this type very broadly, and regard the classic arcade scene as overpopulated with them. Will you ever get sick of this type of game?
I don't think that anybody disagrees that Minestorm and Space Duel fit into this category. But what about Space Fury, Gravitar, Rip Off, Solar Quest, Space Wars, Star Castle and Zektor?
I love this type of game and I still think that there is more that can be done with it. Gravitar would be the model and I think that a 2d exploration game could work using this mechanic. But also just more single screen Asteroids types, with more diverse enemies, goals, power ups and even bosses.
To me the side scrolling shooters seem way more overdone than the Asteroids type. Bottom of the screen may be less overdone, but they're not nearly as fun for me.
** edit ** - I meant to put this in the Miscellaneous Vector section.
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Post by VectorX on Jan 29, 2013 19:32:00 GMT -5
Moved! I'm wondering how broadly others identify games as "Asteroids-like", and what your opinions are. One of my younger friends seems to view this type very broadly, and regard the classic arcade scene as overpopulated with them. Will you ever get sick of this type of game? Not as long as they're fun! (Yes, I know, a term subjective to tastes.) As you also mentioned bottom of the screen shooters, I still love those, for example. I don't think that anybody disagrees that Minestorm and Space Duel fit into this category. But what about Space Fury, Gravitar, Rip Off, Solar Quest, Space Wars, Star Castle and Zektor? None of them really are to me, just controls-wise. But then, as you said, it can be considered a bit of a broad category.
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Post by TrekMD on Jan 30, 2013 10:05:48 GMT -5
Not sure what to call that category of games. Rotating shooters? That would certainly fit with Asteroids, Minestorm, and Space Duel. That name doesn't really fit the others, though, since your ship really isn't rotating at the center of the screen. Heck, if we go with "rotating shooters" that makes games like Vector Pilot fit the category as well.
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Post by ledzep on Jan 30, 2013 14:39:13 GMT -5
Ya, I think Asteroids-type games have to be something like ship avoiding dumb obstacles, being able to destroy/remove those dumb obstacles, with only the occasional smart enemy/thing showing up to try to kill the ship, it can't be primarily about player vs. smart enemy. That's Minestorm and Space Duel for sure. No way is that Gravitar or Rip-Off or Space Wars. But I think Solar Quest qualifies, so do Zektor and Space Fury.
But ya, if it applies to all those games your friend mentioned then it also applies to practically any top-view game like Armor..Attack, Tank, Space Dungeon, Robotron, Time Pilot or any game where you can fire in all directions at moving things, too many games would qualify.
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Post by gliptitude on Jan 30, 2013 17:11:57 GMT -5
Well you only START in the center in Asteroids. You're not locked there like in Time Pilot.
The main distinctions to me are in contrast to side scrolling shooters and top down shooters (as well as perspective view shooters):
1. Steer and THRUST controls
2. Enemies/objects/targets approaching from VARIOUS directions (necessitating directional shooting)
3. Non-linear levels
The thrust control of these games is a major distinction and it is native to the era. For people like me who grew up playing NES, there is a pretty big initial learning curve with thrusting. ... And subsequently that is a great novelty to me.
"Non-linear levels" might be a bit of a stretch, as Asteroids arguably has no levels at all. But the wrap around screen is a favorite of mine and it is in very strict contrast to what I grew up with as "shooters", where nearly every single game follows in the Scramble cannon of progressing from left to right in an extremely and concisely goal oriented manner (Gradius, Lifeforce, R-Type, Parodius, etc etc etc).
While there are some linear aspects to games like Gravitar, it is not such a literal presentation as the Scramble type. The solar system view and the planet view are depicted with identical visuals and game mechanics, even though the solar system is more the Asteroids type (which direction is up?) and the planet view is in most instances the equivalent of a side view. But the wrap around screens of the planet levels and the dispersed targets/fuel pickups, not necessarily taken in order but just as likely revisited throughout the level, in combination with the distorted gravity elements - again, which direction is up? which direction is forward?
The directional shooting and the simple steer/thrust combination couple ideally with vector graphics, allowing nearly limitless directions, ... and the omni-directional goals/enemy assaults lend relevance to this control scheme.
Although it is not an even comparison, I liken it a little to the difference between manual transmission automobiles and automatic trans ones. Once you learn to drive and enjoy a stick shift, automatics come to feel like handicap vehicles to you. ... The feeling of movement and control is a much more "manual" one in Asteroids, compared to the "move the stick in the direction you want to go" controls of Scramble etc.
I might as well have named this thread "Steer and Thrust games", except that I also mean to eliminate from the genre games where you automatically travel in one single direction throughout the entire game.
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Post by gliptitude on Jan 30, 2013 17:18:06 GMT -5
Since my last post is a bit long, I just want to repeat the most important part of it:
I might as well have named this thread "Steer and Thrust games", except that I also mean to eliminate from the genre games where you automatically travel in one single direction throughout the entire game.
The feeling of movement and control is a much more "manual" one in Asteroids, compared to the "move the stick in the direction you want to go" controls of Scramble etc.
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Post by VectorX on Jan 30, 2013 18:58:28 GMT -5
^Or perhaps "multi-directional shooter" would fit the bill?
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Post by TrekMD on Jan 30, 2013 20:00:39 GMT -5
^Or perhaps "multi-directional shooter" would fit the bill? That may indeed be a better moniker.
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Post by gliptitude on Jan 30, 2013 21:34:46 GMT -5
^Or perhaps "multi-directional shooter" would fit the bill? Heh, well the THRUSTING is maybe the most important part to me. The "multi-directional" is important because the environment that that entails is necessary to get the full purpose of a steer/thrust mechanic. (As opposed to Protector, which is obviously also a completely awesome implementation of thrusting). But "multi-directional shooter" could just as easily include games like Time Pilot (no thrust). I'm not really too concerned with categorizing video games. My goal was more to have a quasi-philosophical or theoretical discussion, and to apply this in a speculative way to NEW GAME IDEAS. I try to narrow this steer/thrust concept down to it's essential aspect, because I hope that it helps to focus myself and others on articulating fundamentals, and possibly discovering new ideals! It's just striking to me how fun (and stimulating to my imagination) these Golden Age games are, when the machines are so much less powerful than those of today. Starting in the NES era (where I started) and then crystallizing in the 16-bit era, video games came to be dominated by "characters", with the differences between games being more a difference of literal content (story and visual elements), (think about all of the video game character franchises in that time period). ...Then in subsequent video game generations, realism and simulation came to be the dominating aspect. Obviously I'm generalizing and exaggerating, but I think it's fair to say that in some fundamental respect, the modern day games are more alike one another, as compared to those of the classic arcade days. Gah! I hope that doesn't sound too pretentious. This is how I amuse myself.
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Post by TrekMD on Jan 30, 2013 21:39:56 GMT -5
LOL I don't think it is pretentious. Many of these modern games are the same thing that just looks different. I suppose someone could say that this happened with retro games also (how many clones of Pac-Man can you think of?) but I still think that the older games were also better because they left stuff to your imagination.
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Post by VectorX on Jan 30, 2013 21:45:15 GMT -5
My goal was more to have a quasi-philosophical or theoretical discussion, and to apply this in a speculative way to NEW GAME IDEAS. I see what you're saying. I don't really have an imagination for that kind of thing though, so I couldn't help with that. Gah! I hope that doesn't sound too pretentious. This is how I amuse myself. Bah ha ha!
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Post by wyldephang on Jan 30, 2013 22:32:51 GMT -5
You made a good argument for solidifying a working definition of the Asteroids sub-genre. "Steer-and-thrust" is an apt way to describe Asteroids and games like it. In the 1990s, there was a game called Lunatic Fringe that was bundled with the After Dark PC screensaver program. For the most part, it copies the Asteroids formula, but I recall that there were some unique gameplay elements. You can play it here: fringe.jamescarnley.com/Keyboard controls are fairly straightforward: Up key moves forward, Space key shoots the primary gun. I seem to remember picking up power-ups, too, when I played this game as a kid, but I didn't run across anything like that on the emulated version above. I wonder if I had a later software revision.
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Post by gliptitude on Jan 31, 2013 21:56:53 GMT -5
hey wyldephang, you seem to understand my agenda. But it looks like the game you link has the ship stuck in the middle. pushing "up" to thrust is a bit awkward. I've seen that that's how they did it on a lot of 2600 games. I feel pretty jipped in that set-up, but perhaps that way of thrusting was something gamers got used to? ...
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Post by VectorX on Jan 31, 2013 22:06:26 GMT -5
Yeah, we got used to it in the day. Those 2600 games only had one button on the joystick, so we didn't have much choice there.
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Post by VectorX on Jan 31, 2013 22:08:13 GMT -5
How about Omega Race? Granted, you didn't reappear from one area of a screen to another like with Asteroids, Space Duel, Mine Storm, etc., but it's got thrusting and shooting to it though.
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