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Post by Computer Nerd Kev on Apr 11, 2015 6:41:01 GMT -5
Hello, I'm the bloke who makes the "VecAdapt" controller adapters. I've been playing with the LCD from a digital photo frame for use as an overlay for the Vectrex. In theory it can display any overlay image you want. Full deatails at my website here: www.computernerdkev.heliohost.org/eleoverl/eleoverl.htmFor some reason I wrote it as if the reader has no idea what the Vectrex is, but it shouldn't be too hard to skip to the interesting bits. The short conclusion is that it works quite well, though the panel I used was too small. The display is viewable, and could be brighter if a more suitable type of LCD panel was used. I've thought of making some to sell but, especially with the challenge of making / having made a suitable case for the LCD panel, I expect the cost would be over $100 Australian. I'm not sure if many would want to buy such a thing at that price (I'd want to make at least 50, maybe 100 for it to work out). Anyway, have a look and perhaps pull apart some unloved digital photo frames (note that it's very hard to select overlays without being able to see the display). As I note on the webpage, if the LCD overlay hardware could communicate with the Vectrex, there would be a possibility for some form of active colouring of game graphics as well. I haven't looked into how that might work, but it's a nice thought to re-invent the colour Vectrex. |
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Post by Rapetou33 on Apr 11, 2015 7:07:34 GMT -5
I think your idea is great ! I am really interested in having a closer look at this device. Well done mate !
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Post by mikiex on Apr 11, 2015 18:11:46 GMT -5
A really nice idea, have you seen AMOLED transparent screens, they might work even better as they transmit light also www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdn_nZzvQL8Might fight with it though... not sure |
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Post by Computer Nerd Kev on Apr 11, 2015 19:19:26 GMT -5
Thanks, I didn't know about those new displays.
The problem with them though is that they generate light rather than filtering it. Hence the light from the display would hide the display of the vectrex, and it wouldn't colour it anyway.
However if you put a transparent AMOLED display in front of an LCD panel, you could in theory have the AMOLED show the overlay border with the light from the Vectrex screen filtered through the LCD in the middle. The problem would be the further reduction of light from the Vectrex getting through the screens. I really doubt the display would be viewable if a TFT LCD panel was used, perhaps it would work with a STN LCD because they let more light through in theory, but I haven't tried one of them.
Maybe sometime I'll try cutting a hole in the middle of the plastic light diffuser from the backlight to see how well the border could be lit on an LCD. I'm not sure whether it's really worth it just for the borders art though...
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Post by 50tbrd on Apr 12, 2015 12:28:20 GMT -5
I think its a great idea. I want one and you'd have others who would to.
I think that selling 50 for $100 or more would be difficult though. There are a lot of people who balk at 60 bucks for one of Kristoff's games (took 4 years to sell 200) and even the 80 euros for one of the Madtronix Imagers. I don't want to discourage you though. And its a possibility with time or possibly a slightly higher price with a run or 20-30 or even a DIY kit.
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Post by 50tbrd on Jun 13, 2015 14:29:36 GMT -5
I was looking at Photo Viewers large enough to cover the Vectrex screen. Do you have a source already? Looking at prices, I don't see how its at all cost effective at least for a single Photo Viewer. Maybe splitting the overlay into 2 images across 2 digital photo frames might be much better or using a TV.
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Post by gauze on Jun 13, 2015 16:46:50 GMT -5
There are a lot of people who balk at 60 bucks for one of Kristoff's games (took 4 years to sell 200) it was actually closer to US$70 when the exchange rate wasn't as favorable to americans. I still long for the $20 games of the 1st wave of vec development, honestly. |
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Post by 50tbrd on Jun 13, 2015 17:25:57 GMT -5
I hear you but...
They didn't make much money back then and especially wouldn't now to make it worth their time. Between 4-5 bucks for a repro shell, 4-5 for a PCB, 3 bucks for a container to make it presentable (VHS box, etc), and miscellaneous costs such as stock for labels and manuals which are sometimes professionally printed, the developers still have to factor the time spent coding or the fees for the rights to distribute the games. But, its still less than they charge for new games from some other systems even ones that are produced in much larger quantities.
That's why I am a fan of having both a standard or value version AND a limited edition or premium version. That's also why I try to come up with packaging that can be made cheaply but still look professional.
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Post by Computer Nerd Kev on Jun 13, 2015 18:06:59 GMT -5
Yes, selling modified digital photo frames wasn't my plan for these, just my way of easily testing the theory. I think looking into it, you could buy large digital frames (although I think they might have been just a little bit smaller than ideal) for around $50 from bulk sellers in China, the minimum order there would be 100 units or more though.
The main problem is that the bare modified photo frame isn't a terribly useable device. If large enough it would work well once set to a particular overlay, but selecting overlays wouldn't be possible without being able to put an even light source behind it, which if kept in place during use would obscure the Vectrex image. In testing, I slipped the backlight that I had removed from the photo frame in behind the LCD manually to change overlays, and combining that with the slow photo frame software, it's a real pain to select the right overlay.
I decided the best way to go with making a real product would be to design all the control electronics from scratch, and probably have a little box connected to the electric overlay with a cable to sit next to the Vextrex and display the current overlay either as a number with a two digit LED display, or as full file-names with a little backlit monochrome LCD. Then up at the screen there's just a little board integrated into the LCD's frame (which would also have to be custom made - likely laser-cut - and probably take up a good share of the cost) to take the cable from the control box and put them through a connector for the screen to plug into.
I've also looked into TV picture viewer boxes that can output composite video for TVs. Again, I couldn't find anyone giving bulk pricing on quantities of less than 100 on these. Some LCD panels come with composite input boards attached to them and I might be able to find some that don't cost much more than plain LCDs (though the size needed is a major pain, as it's not common), also mounting the pre-made composite converter boards would be an issue, because they come stuck to the back of the screen. I'd have to experiment with the TV picture viewer boxes to see if a small "current image" display could be added to them, as none seem to come with this. This would mean having to get samples of everything first, which can be difficult too when you're a small, distant (from China) player.
The minimum orders of 100 aren't an instant deal breaker - if I thought I'd only sell 50, I could buy these components in lots of 100 and just keep the extras, with the product cost adjusted for that. I did that for some parts in the VecAdapts (anyone want 200 22uF capacitors?), but being such big components here, the price would feel this approach rather badly.
The real question I've come to is whether it's really worth possibly designing a digital photo frame from scratch, and potentially investing a couple of thousand $, when I might expect only a few handfuls of orders. Heck I'm still glad I didn't make 100 VecAdapts, because sales more or less cut off after 40. I'm not sure about KickStater etc. because for my own peace of mind, let alone the backer's, I'd want to have the design completed before running the campaign. So if it didn't succeed, I'll be throwing a lot of work down the drain.
Actually I was close to this conclusion when I first put the page on my website - basically if anyone else wants to pick up my place in this, they're welcome to it. If one could sell 100 of these, and put the work in to building everthing up from scratch, I think a component cost of $30 - $40 might be achievable. I might get back to this when I have more time, there might be ways it can be done, though sales-wise one would probably be better selling custom-made novelty photo frames at the local market.
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Post by 50tbrd on Jun 13, 2015 19:24:28 GMT -5
Why not reuse the old housing and cut a hole in the back of the frame? If the removal of internal parts makes it to where the old housing no longer holds what you are keeping, why not make new brackets/use spacer, even rubber grommets?
I don't doubt that eventually people will ask or there will be the need again for your adapters. I'm actually surprised that you didn't sell more.
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Post by Computer Nerd Kev on Jun 13, 2015 21:09:25 GMT -5
I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting. I meant to have the LCD mounted similar to an overlay in the Vectrex, in the sort of screen cavity. The LCD needs to be right up next to the screen otherwise the picture gets blurry from the light spreading out in the gap. Manually cutting such large holes would also be rather time consuming, though with only 20 or so it might be acceptable.
Oh yes, I'll give it a year or so (depending on what's convenient for me) and probably make another 50, as long as the parts don't become too much harder to come by.
I've been selling these power supply monitors for various Commodore computer (http://www.computernerdkev.heliohost.org/comiemon/comiemon.htm) for $22 AUD and had a similar problem in terms of how to make them cheaply enough. I think a similar approach could be used for Vectrex cartridges.
I concluded that the no. 1 purpose of the case was to allow the user to grip something so that a PCB can be pulled in and out, and not be tempted to put pressure on components by gripping them in the process. To this end, with no suitable cases available, I decided on using lengths of aluminium extrusion cut to size and mounted at the back of the PCB using long bolts, as you can see in the pictures on my webpage. To prevent the electronics shorting out to the aluminium, I coated the area that the the board rests against in plastic (oh, that reminds me I still need to do that again for the next batch).
Those devices connect using a socket instead of a bare PCB "goldern finger", but I think the same approach can be applied to Vectrex cartridges by holding the screws inside the PCB with a "captive nut" arrangement, and bolting the back of the PCB to horizontal bit of the aluminium angle.
I've got PCBs that size made to that for $0.90 (Australian $) each in quantity of 50, with good quality results. If the boards were made bigger than normal, the holes for cartridge cases could be included in the same PCB design. Hmm, there might be a way to do that without a bigger PCB actually...
Nuts and bolts would add up to about $0.40 - $0.50 in total, a chip that I think is compatible can be bought for ~$1.80, so total ends up about $3.20 for the component cost. If I wanted bulk VHS cases, I might just buy one of the bulk clear outs of old VHS tapes that appear on Ebay often enough in Australia. Of course you'd then probably have to take all the tapes to the tip, I don't think they are easily recycled.
My local Op-Shop (charity shop, thrift shop, whatever your country calls them) sells old VHS tapes for $0.20, so let's say the total is $3.40 AUD, selling at $20 USD, which is $25.87 AUD at the moment, that would be $23.47 AUD profit on each board. If one assumed that the component cost was cheaper in the US due to the currency conversion (this will never really be true, but what the hell), this can translated into $18.15 profit in the US. 90.75% profit, that's the sort of margin Apple would be happy with!
Good greif, it sounds like I'm selling a get rich quick scheme.
I've sketched up what the PCB design I'm thinking of looks like, and surprisingly for me the sketch actually looks somewhat intelligable, so I'll scan it in later and post a link here so you can see what I'm on about.
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Post by Computer Nerd Kev on Jun 13, 2015 23:59:24 GMT -5
Here's the sketch, you might just about be able to figure it out:  I forgot to count in the aluminium in my cost calculation. I've already got a supply of this myself (although it's drying up rapidly), so I don't know what the cost is for it new. The bottom sketch shows a design using areas routed out of the PCB, a bolt goes through this and nuts are tightened against each other in the gaps - the aim being to pass the force through a large amount of PCB material so that it won't tend to break - a short bolt into the horizontal bit of the aluminium angle acts with the friction of the nuts to keep the frame from falling away vertically. This might be weak and in any case will add to the cost of the PCB, so I thought of the upper design where there are simply notches on the outside of the PCB for the nuts. No space is left between the PCB and the horizontal bit of the aluminium angle (these are still screwed together, even though it isn't in the sketch), so the holes for the bolts can be drilled into the aluminium just above the board and the edges of the nuts secured in the notches. The notches of the top design shouldn't add any cost to PCB manufacture. Of course you'd need a bench drill to make the holes and at least a hacksaw to cut up the Aluminium angle. |
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Post by Computer Nerd Kev on Jun 14, 2015 3:03:59 GMT -5
Oh, for heaven's sake!
Of course you could just use some bolts along the back of the PCB, going into the horizontal bit of the Aluminium angle.
Thinging backwards about something has its trappings...
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