|
Post by wyldephang on Nov 13, 2013 3:38:40 GMT -5
I'm in my late 20s, so my earliest memories of video games were NES and Atari 2600 titles. I don't think I visited an arcade until I was 6 or 7 years old, well after classics like Donkey Kong and Pac-Man had fallen out of vogue, and well after gaming had completed its transition from the arcades to the homes. So, for me, whether a console could furnish pixel-perfect ports of arcade originals is not as important as the standalone quality of the library as a whole. And I think the Atari 2600 library is very strong, with timeless titles like Pitfall, Space Invaders, Ms. Pac-Man, Centipede, and a slew of others that have occupied many an hour in the average gamer's life. I'll acknowledge that the Atari 2600 editions barely resemble the arcade originals, but most consoles up until the Dreamcast were not able to reproduce with 100 percent accuracy the true arcade experience. Nonetheless, an imperfect port of an arcade classic can still be a strong game in its own right, and the Atari 2600 had enough of these games to be considered a great system--not just for its time, but across all eras. The joystick is very simplistic, but the gameplay never seems to suffer from it.
My favorite classic console right now is the SNES, as it offers the most to suit my personal preferences. I gravitate toward story-driven games, especially adventures and RPGs, and I like platformers and action games. Some of the best games from each of these genres have been released on the SNES, and it's always been a pleasure to track them down and play them on the native hardware. I own about 70 cartridges, and I still feel I'm missing dozens more of the essential titles.
|
|
|
Post by gliptitude on Nov 15, 2013 0:04:12 GMT -5
.. I spent about an hour and a half writing a response on tuesday night, but my dad arrived in town before I could finish, and I have been estranged from my computer/internet up until this afternoon. I still have that incomplete text, but am starting over from scratch anyway.
I put a lot of thought into the long posts I make in these forums, (and in many cases RESEARCH) and I do appreciate the substantial responses. .. Granted a large part of the time I put in is a function of vanity, formulating my argument and refining my language. But eh, well I enjoy it anyway.
I'm in the process of tracking down emulators and ROMs right now, with the intention of making comparisons and getting better exposure to the 2600 and its contemporaries. .. However, I think I'm going to make my general response prior to that, probably a final response, and perhaps follow up later with a more neutral commentary on my experience with the games (in another thread possibly). I think all of that squares evenly with my main points anyway, which did not presume or rely on a total knowledge of the subject matter.
To answer one of VectorX's earlier questions, YES, the number of 2600 games I have played can be measured in the dozens. A bit over 3 dozen, including about one dozen of the games that have already been highlighted in this thread as being among the better games.
The only thing I consider a mistake in my evaluation so far, (although I don't think I said anything to indicate this, but it was a presumption of mine), is that Intellivision and Colecovision can not fairly be considered contemporaries to the 2600, because they didn't even begin development until AFTER the 2600 took hold. I didn't know that.
I said I "hate" THE CONSOLE largely because of the object itself, that the DESIGN principles of this OBJECT are highly flawed, and overall distasteful to me. I think I said as much in the beginning and I know that I mentioned the controller.
The idea that it was a new market and a totally new type of product, (which is not even entirely accurate), IS NOT a valid excuse for terrible design. Bally Astrocade and Odyssey 2 both had SUPERIOR designs. Years EARLIER the original Odyssey had superior design, in spite of a very strange controller. And many of the Pong consoles had more thoughtful design and even controllers that I'd argue were better than 2600.
The Nintendo Game Boy was a venture into semi-uncharted territory, and it beat out arguably superior (technologically) competitors, LARGELY BASED ON A COMPLETELY INSPIRED DESIGN OF THE CONSOLE. It is a more approachable console because of this, and I would argue it is a BETTER console because of this. There is nothing clumsy about this product and there is no reason for any product to be as clumsy as the VCS.
The VCS wasn't the first PRODUCT. We had had designers and engineers planning industrial production of items such as this for more than a century, and the Atari people undoubtedly made discriminating choices in how they presented this machine. They were not the best choices. ... Furthermore they were not INTERESTING choices. There is no novelty or risk that compensates for any of its shortcomings and there is nothing curious about it.
From a functional standpoint,IT IS VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD, and OUGHT TO BE FUNCTIONAL. My problem with the controller isn't it's lack of buttons. It's that IT FEELS LIKE SH!T. Feels like sh!t is feels like sh!t, whether it's the first time it's ever been done before or not. The Odyssey 2 controller is very similar in features and roughly contemporary in production chronology and IT DOESN'T FEEL LIKE SH!T.
WHEN I PLAY THIS CONSOLE I DO NOT FEEL LIKE I NEED MORE POWER OR TECHNOLOGY, I just feel ripped off. I feel like the thing doesn't work. I feel like the games in many cases, (including some of the highlighted ones that I HAVE played like Gravitar and Asteroids), are being IMPOSED on this machine. It seems rare that a game for this console actually feels native to it.
I do NOT find it ironic that I mentioned Gravitar.
... I mostly just find it outrageous what VECTREX has to offer in comparison, and the original game library is a great strength as far as I'm concerned. The assortment of GCE/MB games is plenty robust enough to demonstrate the full functionality of this very elegant machine, and ALL of the ones that I have highlighted as worthy feel COMPLETELY NATIVE TO THE CONSOLE. With the 2600, the games much more typically demonstrate what the console CAN'T do rather than what it can.
The Vectrex controller is RESPONSIVE as well as beautiful and compact in design and satisfying to handle. It is a completely satisfying game console to use, and still seems so when compared to those of today. Yes it had the advantage of several years of Atari to improve upon, and that it was a bit of a higher end consumer item in comparison. ... But that it measures so favorably with others that came DECADES later is testament to the accomplishments of Vectrex.
I would probably have a more positive view of VCS if I had only ever been presented with 20 or 30 games which represented reasonable variety and functionality, and which were appropriately scaled to the console and its capabilities.
The vast library of 2600 games, which was afforded by the comprehensive penetration of the market by this console, (just as well could have been the Astrocade if things were handled differently), offers the possibility for a person to get LOST in a world of images and titles. This is probably part of the pleasure for many of the VCS fans. But for someone like me who has really never had a positive experience with this console, it doesn't help the cause and it is hard to give each game a fair chance.
It may have seemed necessary and exciting to offer a game like Gravitar on the 2600 at the time. But in retrospect, and not having a need for that, it looks like a mistake to me. The original game is way too sophisticated for this console.
My introduction to video games was a 400/800 Atari computer console that my family had for a few years prior to the arrival of the NES. It had the same gummy controller and (perhaps updated) games, (IDK). Joust and Dig Dug were SORT OF fun for us, but they made no significant impression on me. The idea of video games REALLY being fun did not even occur to me until we got an NES. I had no sense of arcades or their superiority over console games.
Meanwhile, I didn't even know Vectrex existed until only a couple years ago, therefor had zero happy (or unhappy) memories of it AND I WAS COMPLETELY BLOWN AWAY when I discovered it, after years of playing far more advanced games and systems. This was fun and amazing!
It is hard for me to believe that sentimentality does not play a predominant role in the survival of VCS. I think fans like the shortcomings of it. I think they are amused and enamored by it's inferiority to the arcades of the time and I think they have fond memories of being able to play "arcade games" in their parents' basement. I think that when you played Gravitar on that console in (1981?), the game benefited greatly from your preconception of it.
... I wouldn't think to make any of these arguments or have any emotions about it if it wasn't the case that this console was constantly heralded (sincerely) as one of the very best ever. So in that respect, my argument, and even my actual feelings, are somewhat political.
...I feel that Vectrex has very deep and distant roots, invoking the earliest experiments in video games in a very pure way.
The Atari console, in very stark contrast, has always seemed (and continues to seem) entirely IMPURE to me.
It's a lot like going to a restaurant with a 10 page long menu. I have never gotten a good meal in this situation. They have no focus, they don't know what they're doing, they have no concept of presentation and they never actually have the stock to produce everything that they are offering. The things that they do know how to make get made more haphazardly than they otherwise would be, because the kitchen is a mess. THE PRODUCT HAS NO CONCEPT. By aiming to please every single possible (and impossible) taste, they almost always finish with mediocrity, and often fall short of that.
|
|
|
Post by VectorX on Nov 15, 2013 11:46:46 GMT -5
The only thing I consider a mistake in my evaluation so far, (although I don't think I said anything to indicate this, but it was a presumption of mine), is that Intellivision and Colecovision can not fairly be considered contemporaries to the 2600, because they didn't even begin development until AFTER the 2600 took hold. I didn't know that. Nope. That's why all the Intellivision ads were anti-Atari, since the console was so much more powerful than the VCS. And with the ColecoVision, it was that vs. the Atari 5200. The idea that it was a new market and a totally new type of product, (which is not even entirely accurate), IS NOT a valid excuse for terrible design. Bally Astrocade and Odyssey 2 both had SUPERIOR designs. Years EARLIER the original Odyssey had superior design, in spite of a very strange controller. And many of the Pong consoles had more thoughtful design and even controllers that I'd argue were better than 2600. There were many models of the VCS though, with improved designs later. I see your point though. With the 2600, the games much more typically demonstrate what the console CAN'T do rather than what it can. It depends on what period you're looking at. The later games were a lot bigger and better than the earlier 1-2K games (although Adventure was still great though). Many earlier and launch titles on any console aren't necessarily going to be very good (Starship, one of the earliest launch titles, was pure crap, I'll admit, especially with the so-called "Lunar Lander" variations; bullcrap!), especially when third party companies aren't aware of what the new product can do as of yet. The very first released game of Combat is still looked at to be a good game due to the variety of vehicles the players can control. Maybe you don't like it (the control of the tanks you mentioned elsewhere on the forums), but it had a variety (the jets were fast as compared to the biplane variations). My introduction to video games was a 400/800 Atari computer console that my family had for a few years prior to the arrival of the NES. It had the same gummy controller and (perhaps updated) games, (IDK). Joust and Dig Dug were SORT OF fun for us, but they made no significant impression on me. The idea of video games REALLY being fun did not even occur to me until we got an NES. I had no sense of arcades or their superiority over console games. There were a ton of good games of all sorts for the Atari computers back then with much more depth, some of which you could save and play for months. Not a long-playing game per se, but Star Raiders was a real breakthrough at the time with its complexity, for example, and it showcased what the computers could do, rather than just decent arcade conversions.
|
|
|
Post by gliptitude on Nov 15, 2013 15:54:25 GMT -5
Star Raiders was a real breakthrough at the time with its complexity, for example, and it showcased what the computers could do, rather than just decent arcade conversions. I think we had that one actually. I was too young or impatient to comprehend it. But it did stick in my memory and I always wanted to go back and see if I could figure it out. It seemed very complicated to me at the time. Have never been positive that was the one or not. I definitely recognize the picture on the manual on wikipedia. But the game graphics are color in the pictures, and I remember them being black and white. I pulled that old computer out of the attic when I was in college and couldn't get it to work. .. That thing was always a disappointment to us. Might still have it somewhere and might be easy to fix. .. I'm much more likely to mess with the C64 though, which I grabbed for like 10 bucks in 2007 and barely played.
|
|
|
Post by VectorX on Nov 18, 2013 11:35:09 GMT -5
Star Raiders was a real breakthrough at the time with its complexity, for example, and it showcased what the computers could do, rather than just decent arcade conversions. I think we had that one actually. I was too young or impatient to comprehend it. But it did stick in my memory and I always wanted to go back and see if I could figure it out. It seemed very complicated to me at the time. Yeah, a cousin of mine in Virginia had an Atari 800 computer with S. Raiders on it. I couldn't figure out what to do until someone told me to press "G" for Graph, bringing up a map there. It never occurred to me to try out the keyboard there, as I assume "W" was for warp to go to other sectors to blow ships up. Missile Command and others I had no problems playing of course, due to just using the joystick.
|
|
|
Post by steel76 on May 21, 2014 7:48:37 GMT -5
Too me, the Atari 2600, is my favorite console of all time. The console, that I got back in 82, is still alive and well, and has NEVER broke down on me And on a VERY close second, the Vectrex of course! Love how the whole homebrew scene, has brought new life to these classics. Got "Juno First" for the 2600 on the way now. The first new game I bought for the system, in almost 30 years!!
|
|
|
Post by VectorX on May 21, 2014 9:10:24 GMT -5
That's cool, as there was even talk of Juno First on here elsewhere several months ago, actually.
|
|
|
Post by steel76 on May 21, 2014 12:48:01 GMT -5
Yeah, can´t wait to play it. Seems to be a near perfect port of the arcade It´s also one reason why I´m going to get one of those Vox gadgets, so I also can save my highscores on the game. There are a few other homebrews that I´m gonna collect as well, as the incredible port of Ladybug It´s basically arcade perfect: www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmzmKFm0SPY
|
|
|
Post by gliptitude on Jul 14, 2014 11:06:10 GMT -5
Well I'm revisiting this thread since I have recently softened up to the 2600.
Sorry for stinking the place up. .. I don't think I was way off base or that my opinion has changed radically, but looking over previous posts it looks like I was a little over the top there. .. Probably I was rolling over other more important (and frustrating) legal matters in my mind at the time.
It still seems completely ridiculous to me that I am able to get any one of my friends to play Atari with me while none of them are willing to play Vectrex. That to me corroborates one of my previous convictions, that Atari wins out most often because of its ubiquity. Why would you not play a Vectrex if you had the chance?
... Culling through the game recommendations of folks here and elsewhere, and trying some others that looked interesting to me, I have come up with a pretty substantial lineup of what I consider "worthy 2600 games". It's a much shorter list if I restrict myself to games that I can really stand behind as "good". But lots of games warrant at least some attention. .. I don't think I'm being unfair or unreasonable in my expectations here. One of my most common criticisms with these games is that they are trying to do too much, perhaps stuff that the machine is never going to be capable of.
For me to take the leap it was totally essential that I also discovered an alternative to the standard Atari joystick controllers. It looks like there are many of them that would suit me better than the standard ones, but I enventually acquired a pair of joysticks THAT REALLY BLOW ME AWAY, which are the TG Enjoysticks - nice springy stick, slender like the vectrex "thumbstick" but about twice as long. It's smooth and responsive and very satisfying to play with, housed in a case that fits comfortably in one hand. .. Also the Paddle controllers are a way different experience and for me a highlite of the hardware.
Games I totally stand behind:
Yar's Revenge Night Driver Cosmic Ark Demon Attack Kaboom Fantastic Voyage
Games I call good:
Adventure Secret Quest Dig Dug Turmoil Defender Ii Juno First Berzerk
Games worth checking out:
Dark Chambers Pole Position Space Invaders Star Ship (!) Solaris Raiders of the Lost Ark Haunted House
Games I haven't played yet but expect to like:
H.E.R.O. Encounter at L5 Mega Force Moonsweeper Dragon Fire Thrust+ Warlords
.. There are a lot of popular titles still that are not going to get a fair shot from me for a while, if ever. But also some that I have tried and given up on, (Megamania, Jungle Hunt ..)
.. Still looking for a homebrew that totally blows me away and I'm not sure if I've found any candidates. I thought Juno First might be that but now that I've played it it seems like a more one dimensional game than I remember the arcade version being. .. I'd like to see an all original, (non-port) homebrew game that can compete with the best vintage 2600 games.
|
|
|
Post by VectorX on Jul 14, 2014 11:45:22 GMT -5
Well I'm revisiting this thread since I have recently softened up to the 2600. Nice to have a convert on here Sorry for stinking the place up. .. I don't think I was way off base or that my opinion has changed radically, but looking over previous posts it looks like I was a little over the top there. .. Probably I was rolling over other more important (and frustrating) legal matters in my mind at the time. Hope that got straightened out... It still seems completely ridiculous to me that I am able to get any one of my friends to play Atari with me while none of them are willing to play Vectrex. That to me corroborates one of my previous convictions, that Atari wins out most often because of its ubiquity. Why would you not play a Vectrex if you had the chance? I don't get that either: if they can handle the 2600 and what many a game looks horrendous compared to pretty much anything out from other, more powerful systems that came out afterwards, then what the hell's wrong with the Vectrex? Games worth checking out: Star Ship (!) Wow, that's nuts, *I* don't even like that one! And I enjoyed the arcade original! Raiders of the Lost Ark Haunted House Raiders you probably spent quite a bit of time on with the instructions! Pretty detailed, as you have to use two joysticks! My mom got me Haunted House with Pac-Man when they came out. A pretty different game there. Games I haven't played yet but expect to like: Dragon Fire Thrust+ Warlords Yeah, Warlords you'll need human players! Do you have more than one set of paddle controllers? Thrust I'd definitely like to hear how it and the Vectrex version compare. Dragonfire's simple but also unique, not to mention it gets pretty fast! Still looking for a homebrew that totally blows me away and I'm not sure if I've found any candidates. TrekMD has quite a few of them, he'd probably be able to help. I've only played a few briefly at gaming expos, like Lead, which isn't bad. I'd avoid N. E. R. D. S. though.
|
|
|
Post by TrekMD on Jul 14, 2014 12:15:13 GMT -5
A homebrew that will blow you away is Boulderdash on the 2600. The problem is getting it as the run was limited. If you like Pac-Man, Pac-Man 4K is an impressive port of the game for the 2600 that, despite staying within the limits of the original 2600 port, shows that the game could have been much better.
If you like Tetris, Chetiry is an excellent 2600 version of the game. Other games to check: Colony 7, Crazy Balloon, Evil Magician Returns (a follow up to Adventure), Ixion, KO Cruiser, Medieval Mayhem,Thrust+ Platinum, and Lady Bug.
|
|
|
Post by gliptitude on Jul 14, 2014 12:36:27 GMT -5
Games worth checking out: Star Ship (!) Wow, that's nuts, *I* don't even like that one! And I enjoyed the arcade original! Raiders of the Lost Ark Haunted House Raiders you probably spent quite a bit of time on with the instructions! Pretty detailed, as you have to use two joysticks! My mom got me Haunted House with Pac-Man when they came out. A pretty different game there. Well Star Ship and Haunted House I have only yet played in emulation, but both are on my immediate want list. Maybe both are kind of idiosyncratic choices also. Star Ship is kind of amusingly bad, but is so incredibly succinct and articulate in doing so that i just can't resist it. To me it almost seems like some post-modern artist's project, a pastiche of primitive gaming, maybe an interactive avante garde space comedy. .. My favorite part is in the lunar lander game when you move the ship to the edge of the screen, (this game has a wrap around screen, which in itself is one of my favorite things) and half of the sprite appears on the opposite edge while the other half is still on the first edge. I just find the game charming and amusing and very demonstrative. Haunted House I kind of like just because it is such a bare bones adventure game. Maybe graphics and sound are more elaborate and particular than Adventure, but the game objectives are more concise. It's just cool to me to see demonstrated at the minimum what constitutes an adventure game, and cool in this instance that an adventure game can reasonably be started and finished in the same short amount of time as an arcade shooter, and yet still satisfy the criteria and the feeling of an adventure game. .. I can imagine paying a quarter to play this game (or a similarly scaled game like it) standing up and in public, and this being a unique experience. Raiders is not really playable to me (yet?) but i appreciate the archaic complexity of it. It has interesting mechanical and visual novelties to it and it's an intriguing curiosity to me. It would seem nearly impossible to figure out the solution on one's own, but it looks like various degrees of cheats were published, (including a full solution), and possibly that this was even included in printed form with the game. Kind of silly for a game of this type to require this to the degree that it seems to, but a strange multi-faceted game program none the less.
|
|
|
Post by woolfman on Jul 18, 2014 13:50:18 GMT -5
I have always been fascinated by portable games. Starting out with LCD handhelds as a child, later having a gameboy I started recollecting my childhood games. This is where I discovered LSI/VFD tabletop games, that weren´t sold in my country. So I acquired them one by one via internet. Where I really caught fire with consoles (which I never really liked until very recently) was the PC Engine Briefcase Unit. Consisting of a classic card console AND a CD-ROM drive in a plastic briefcase, I was amazed about it´s size given the introduction year of 1987, just a year or so after the NES started out in Europe! I was really lucky to acquire a complete IFU-30 set CIB AND a console CIB for next to nothing in Japan, plus the uber-rare PC Engine LT, also super-cheap CIB (albeit with a defunct screen). I repaired the screen myself and - voila! What really is amazing - the games for the PCE are soooo cheap, and there are so many high-quality titles with cd-quality ingame music and/or speech. Many of the japanese titles are in english or don´t require any japanese language skills. For the Vectrex I can´t really say it at the moment, but it certainly has an honourable space in my collection. I like the concept, I love the feeling of the controller, and that overlay-thing with the games is something very special. Going a little further back into gaming history, basically to its roots, is something quite entertaining.
|
|