idea for Battlezone controller and overlay

[gliptitude]

I'm most interested in totally new concepts for Vectrex games, as opposed to clones and ports. But Battlezone is a pretty obvious choice for adaptation to the Vectrex, and it seems like a great vehicle to implement some of my ideas for Vectrex design, (see drawings). I know a Vectrex Battlezone game was introduced, (never completed and apparently abandoned), but it would not have been compatible with my concepts.

I'm imagining a custom control panel with two direction sticks. Also imagining a screen overlay that has opaque areas that divide up the screen, frame the meters the way some of the Battlezone arcade cabinets do. I've never seen this done on the Vectrex, and I think it would be a great novelty, dividing the screen into a play area, then smaller "windows", possibly a map window also.

It seems like a dual stick controller would be doable since the regular Vectrex control panel already has 4 buttons. I guess for something custom for a Battlezone game, the 2nd stick could just replace 2 buttons, for forward and reverse, and then have 2 available buttons remaining for firing.

... I think it would be better though to make the 2nd stick complete replacement of the 4 buttons, so that it could be used for other games. With "button 1" at the bottom, going around clockwise from there, and each diagonal position equaling both buttons that it is in between. This would make a nice controller for I, Cyborg, which has an otherwise difficult control scheme in my opinion. Would make a nice controller for future games with a directional shooting control too, like Black Widow.

... Is this pretty much how a digital signal for a stick or D-pad is laid out? Would this work? Would it be incredibly difficult to work out the diagonal positions so that it works reliably (successfully pressing 2+3 at the same time, 3+4 at the same time, etc.)?

... Next, if you made a controller of this design for the purpose of playing Battlezone on the Vectrex, you would be out of buttons for firing. Is it feasible to program a game that used a second controller to provide additional button inputs? Perhaps the single dual stick controller could have 4 buttons, or 1 assignable button, and then two leads to plug into the Vectrex controller ports.

Sorry, but I'm an idea peddler. I'm sure my lack of technical knowledge is apparent. But I have fun with it.

Attachments:

[desfeek]

I'm don't claim to be knowledgeable about Vectrex programming. However, from what little I understand, your idea seems a little out of reach for current Vectrex development.

I'm not trying to shoot down your idea completely - on the contrary, I think there are a bunch of awesome pieces to your concept. I love the overlay (maybe the HUD could take up less room?) and the controller idea would be RAD if it could come to be (ROBOTRON WITH 5200-ESQUE DUAL CONTROLLER PLAY!?!).

However, that's a LOT of independent sprites (Vector Pilot pushes capacity w/o major flicker) and custom controller production would be insanely expensive. You could probably count the number of people capable enough to do this on one hand, and out of them, who can you get interested enough to pull it off? Let alone make any sort of profit with it.

My suggestion is, if you want it enough, make it happen. Christopher Tumber wrote a very good beginner's Vectrex programming guide, and aside from one would need Vector mathematics and Assembly Language skills. I hope somebody does finish a good Battlezone port someday!

[VectorX]

Wow, crazy stuff! Nice thoughts

Vectrexmad is a bit tech-knowledgeable and might be able to answer a few things.

Feb 15, 2012 3:53:37 GMT -5 desfeek said:

and the controller idea would be RAD if it could come to be (ROBOTRON WITH 5200-ESQUE DUAL CONTROLLER PLAY!?!).

I guess that Robotron clone isn't going to be finished anytime soon for the system either (guy originally said it'd be complete in like 2004)...

[gliptitude]

Feb 15, 2012 3:53:37 GMT -5 desfeek said:

However, that's a LOT of independent sprites (Vector Pilot pushes capacity w/o major flicker) and custom controller production would be insanely expensive. You could probably count the number of people capable enough to do this on one hand, and out of them, who can you get interested enough to pull it off? Let alone make any sort of profit with it.

Yea I know it is pretty far reaching and probably especially inappropriate for a complete novice such as myself. But I was imagining "production" in a home/studio environment, for a small run. Also with the controller potentially selling in kit form. ('selling' is not my biggest priority) The technology is currently beyond me, but the manufacture of the object is not so beyond me. I've experimented with plastic casting in the past and it is not completely unreasonable to cast custom items in small numbers, of decent quality, BY HAND. To figure what might be possible just bare in mind RecycledGamer's products, the videos on his website of how he makes them, and then imagine that rather than retrofitting a custom pcb to a snes pad, you are fitting to a different (in my design simpler) case. ... I think it could be cool even to use wood for the case. A simple project box from radioshack would suffice for prototyping though.

A big part of the idea with the opaque masking with the overlay is that it REDUCES the number of vectors needed to convey the images. Imagine Polar Rescue, without the circles and rectangles drawn around the meters. Pretty much just imagine everything that doesn't move, printed on the overlay instead of being drawn by the vector monitor.

... The map window would only be displaying small numbers of icons (tringles or dots) kind of like in Protector. The grid could be printed on the overlay.

I admit I don't have much of a grasp on what the system can handle, in terms of volume of sprites and vectors. When I've been brainstorming ideas and then I go back to the Vectrex to play, it does refresh my notion of scale, makes me notice that most games are simpler than most of the ideas I sketch out. However, I don't think that any of my game ideas have more going on at once than Minestorm for example...

attached picture demonstrates how a masking overlay could combine with a reduced vector display to produce a comprehensive image.

Attachments:

[ledzep]

I'm no hardware expert but I would think that, for simplicity's sake, the best way to design a dual stick for the Vectrex would be to sort of combine two normal sticks. By this I mean the new controller would have two sticks and *two* cables, so that it could plug into both ports and the programmer could just treat it as both joysticks. Along with that, each stick could have one or two fire buttons each along with some buttons on the panel itself since there should be a total of 8 buttons available across two separate controllers.

This idea, of course, would negate two-player simultaneous games but Battlezone, Robotron and Black Widow, to name 3 dual stick examples, aren't programmed for two players at the same time, anyway.

[TrekMD]

The idea of the two controllers could be made to work if a special holder is created for two controllers, like the one created for the 5200.

[VectorX]

Actually, if you have to, you can just take a wide flat board/piece of wood, put the controllers on it, and hammer a few nails around them to hold them in place that way. I did that when I had Robotron for my Atari 7800.

A bit crude, but it worked.

[gamezone]

I had a friend years ago take apart a 2600 controller and screw down to a piece of wood. He used it for his Atari 800 computer games and it worked really well.

So in hindsight VectorX's idea is alot better since Vectrex controllers are not as easy to come by these days.

[gliptitude]

ha cool to see this thread revived. Actually it is relevant to what I just came here today to see if people were talking about it: NEW FURY UPDATES. He's taking pre-orders for a new custom controller.

I haven't learned much in the specific since starting this thread, but I have seen the Atari games that used two controllers for single player games. So that's a pretty obvious precedent. If I didn't already mention it earlier in this thread, I'm sure I mentioned elsewhere the possibility of my one controller having two cable leads to plug in. ... I'm pretty sure now that would only be necessary though if the electronics were based on the original controllers. A single controller could have more (or less) than the standard number of buttons on the original control panels.

For sure the most useful implementation would have programmable buttons/sticks, reassigning for different games.

Anybody ever seen any of the game hardware projects of Ben Heck? He has an arcade style (ps3 i think) controller where each of the sticks/button sets, are physically removable and interchangeable in an array of sockets. Perhaps even better than having programmable buttons...

[ledzep]

For Battlezone at least you'd need to have a fire button on the stick, it would be too irritating to try to drive with two sticks and then take you hand off/stretch your finger down to fire. Robotron and Black Widow (and Space Dungeon) wouldn't require that but it would allow for future twin-stick games to use the stick button(s) if needed (shields, bombs, etc.) without having to let go of either stick.

[gliptitude]

Jun 13, 2012 17:39:25 GMT -5 ledzep said:

For Battlezone at least you'd need to have a fire button on the stick, it would be too irritating to try to drive with two sticks and then take you hand off/stretch your finger down to fire. Robotron and Black Widow (and Space Dungeon) wouldn't require that but it would allow for future twin-stick games to use the stick button(s) if needed (shields, bombs, etc.) without having to let go of either stick.

very good point. i hadn't thought of that. I was really more preoccupied with the controller rather than the Battlezone game though, and otherwise liked the idea of two small sticks similar to the one on the original Vectrex controller, (not big enough for a button). But perhaps if the controller was small enough for your fingers to reach around comfortably, there could be a couple buttons on the back, to press with middle or ring fingers, while you move the sticks with thumbs/pointer fingers. ... Otherwise perhaps some buttons placed in the area in between the sticks could be pressed easily enough, maybe letting go of the stick with thumb or pointer finger momentarily. ... If Battlezone is the only game that seems to require a button on the stick, I wouldn't worry too much, because you really can't shoot and move at the exact same time in that game anyway. At least when I've played in emulation, I'm usually positioning the tank and then firing, as you can't fire rapidly in that game one way or the other.

[gamezone]

I am all for a new controller as along more games could come down the pipeline or it could be adapted to existing games.

Take past systems like the Atari 2600 Driving Controller, paddles and the extra button for Omega Race.
Then Colecovision's steering wheel and light guns for Nes, Sega Genesis, SMS and Super Nes. Not very many games used those special controllers.

So my point is:

It just seems everytime a neat add-on comes out it is never supported properly.

[VectorX]

Jun 14, 2012 11:58:18 GMT -5 gamezone said:

I am all for a new controller as along more games could come down the pipeline or it could be adapted to existing games.

Yeah, at least that's what George of FURY is planning with his new Vectrex spinner control, which is good.

Jun 14, 2012 11:58:18 GMT -5 gamezone said:

Take past systems like the Atari 2600 Driving Controller, paddles and the extra button for Omega Race.
Then Colecovision's steering wheel and light guns for Nes, Sega Genesis, SMS and Super Nes. Not very many games used those special controllers.

So my point is:

It just seems everytime a neat add-on comes out it is never supported properly.

The funny thing is, with homebrews nowadays, things have been done with those! I think it was one of the versions of 2600 Thrust that works with the Omega Race controller but I could be wrong. I think at least one game was programmed to accept it (if not more) if it wasn't Thrust.

[ledzep]

Also, having a dual-stick controller with fire buttons on the sticks would make it easier to play any games that would require moving (even with only one stick) and firing along with doing other things like dropping bombs or hitting shields at the same time. Red Baron only uses one stick but it has the fire button on the top as well. I think it would be most useful for true dual-stick games but why not include at least one fire button on each stick if it can be done?

[gliptitude]

Jun 14, 2012 11:58:18 GMT -5 gamezone said:

I am all for a new controller as along more games could come down the pipeline or it could be adapted to existing games.

Take past systems like the Atari 2600 Driving Controller, paddles and the extra button for Omega Race.
Then Colecovision's steering wheel and light guns for Nes, Sega Genesis, SMS and Super Nes. Not very many games used those special controllers.

So my point is:

It just seems everytime a neat add-on comes out it is never supported properly.

Sure. I generally agree, it's a little bit decadent to buy a new peripheral when it can only be used for a couple of games. Actually even beyond that, for any current system I will almost always deliberately avoid any new game that requires something other than the standard controllers.

But with the Vectrex it's way different for me. It's like a science experiment of a game console and I love to see new things done with it. At least for myself, I justify spending money on it more as a hobby rather than entertainment. ... Especially with how I was talking about possibly selling it in kit form, which would also allow it to come to production quicker and sell for less.

... If you look at the price difference between buying Fury's spinner controller with the game, or buying the game by itself, the price of the controller is considerably less than even a salvaged GCE controller. ... Also looking at his products, just making an overlay of high quality (recreating the experience that EVERY original Vectrex game had) adds almost as much to the game price as does the custom controller. (It's very costly to produce quality overlays in small numbers.) ... I'd say it's worth it to any vextrexian who is super excited about even a single compatible game.

Of course I don't know how this Vectrosis controller handles yet, but I love the design of it, very much like what I was thinking for a dual stick controller: small, boxy, simple. The case does not look custom to me. Looks like almost the simplest possible implementation to me. ... Operating the way it apparently does, with the spinner substituting for buttons 1 and 2, there should be some existing homebrews that it works with too.