|
|
Post by gliptitude on May 20, 2012 13:14:05 GMT -5
Part of what turned me onto the Vectrex was what looked to me like a vibrant and compelling homebrew scene. I had spotted some homebrew Sega Genesis titles previously, but that was all I had heard of homebrew video games up to that point.
Since then I've seen some of the other non-Vectrex homebrew stuff, (NES, Colecovision, 2600, 7800 etc.), but Vectrex still looks the best to me. It looks like there is a lot of NES and gameboy stuff, but that it rarely makes it to a hard copy cartridge distribution. Some NES games I've seen require the customer to submit a donor cartridge, which has to be from a particular list of compatible games.
Does anybody have opinions or explanations for why this is? Or maybe somebody disputes that this is even the case. ... The only contributing factor that comes to mind for me is the licensing/copyright stuff, that the Vectrex people sort of released open permissions to continue software development. I guess the novelty of the system also gives a better justification for cart production, since Vectrex games can't really be emulated the way raster games can.
Designing a Vectrex game is top priority for me. But some of my ideas are better suited to NES, and having a physical product in hand at the end would be essential to me working on this. I enjoy the rarity and nitch of the Vectrex (in addition to the sweet vectors of course) but the ubiquitousness of NES consoles would seem to enable a bigger audience and wider distribution if a really cool game was made (would be cool if everybody i know could play my game).
I had imagined there were development kits and software for later consoles, and there doesn't seem to be for Vectrex. Is it harder to develop for NES/SNES/Genesis etc. for some reason?
|
|
|
|
Post by VectorX on May 20, 2012 13:22:05 GMT -5
The only contributing factor that comes to mind for me is the licensing/copyright stuff, that the Vectrex people sort of released open permissions to continue software development. I guess the novelty of the system also gives a better justification for cart production, since Vectrex games can't really be emulated the way raster games can. I'd say it's probably these two. Also, are there multicarts for these systems? That could be another reason, since many of the 'trex games (Nebula Commander, I think all of Dondzila's stuff, several of FURY's, V-Frogger, etc.) can just be loaded onto a cart to play on a Vectrex. I don't know if the same can be said for other systems. I had imagined there were development kits and software for later consoles, and there doesn't seem to be for Vectrex. Is it harder to develop for NES/SNES/Genesis etc. for some reason? I don't think the Genesis was hard to program for per se but I could be wrong. Hopefully someone else can weigh in on this, as well as other thoughts. |
|
|
|
Post by gamezone on May 20, 2012 14:39:29 GMT -5
My two cents: for Nes/Snes/Genesis you are looking at a best gestimate of over 2100 games released all together. I am sure more than that.
So with that many games and many readily cheap, I say it would be hard to try to convince people to buy new games for those systems.
But there are exceptions to this rule as some new Sega Genesis games are selling. So I do not want to discourage you.
Then you have Nintendo who protects everything. (RELEASE DONKEY KONG ARCADE ALREADY!!!)
But the patents have ran out on the Nes and Snes so that is why knock-offs have been popping up. No clue about carts since they hold the game itself.
Meanwhile the Vectrex has so few games and Vectrexer's want more gaming which drives demand and it seems Sega fans are starting to want more also. Just maybe a little ray of light for new Nintendo games?
Best Wishes and I hope to someday play one of your games.
|
|
|
|
Post by desfeek on May 21, 2012 13:22:57 GMT -5
Part of what turned me onto the Vectrex was what looked to me like a vibrant and compelling homebrew scene. Is it not? For such an extremely obscure console, even one new game a year would be considered a success. (recent Odyssey and Astrocade homebrews come to mind) Some NES games I've seen require the customer to submit a donor cartridge, which has to be from a particular list of compatible games. Does anybody have opinions or explanations for why this is? Or maybe somebody disputes that this is even the case. ... The only contributing factor that comes to mind for me is the licensing/copyright stuff, that the Vectrex people sort of released open permissions to continue software development. I guess the novelty of the system also gives a better justification for cart production, since Vectrex games can't really be emulated the way raster games can. Typically homebrew games require specific donor carts because there is a special, impossible-to-find part contained in originals that must be harvested to manufacture physical carts. (The Pitfall II DPC chip comes to mind). Also, if one were to release an unreleased game by a company that manufactured special-sized carts (Activision, Accolade), they'd want to harvest original shells to add to the authenticity of their package. We also have a user base already creating materials for homebrew publishers (unlike many other retro systems). NES has RetroUSB, 2600 has Atariage, we have Sean Kelly and John Dondzila  I enjoy the rarity and nitch of the Vectrex (in addition to the sweet vectors of course) but the ubiquitousness of NES consoles would seem to enable a bigger audience and wider distribution if a really cool game was made (would be cool if everybody i know could play my game). Wider audience = more sales. Some Genny/NES homebrews can sell-out preorders of over 500 copies, while Kristof Tuts is still sitting on his original batch of 250 Vectrexians. I had imagined there were development kits and software for later consoles, and there doesn't seem to be for Vectrex. Is it harder to develop for NES/SNES/Genesis etc. for some reason? Yes. The more complex the hardware, the more complex the game. This is kiiiind of like comparing apples to oranges, however, because different developers have different goals/resources/time. The typical (good) SNES or Genny homebrew requires a solid team of programmers/artists, while Kristof can do Vector Pilot on his own (it just takes about 5 years hehe) --- I've put a lot of thought into this topic, because I too have a dream of someday publishing my own Vectrex game. I am being patient with this goal, because honestly I don't have a clue where to begin. I do know, however, that my ears perk up whenever I hear the term 'Vector Calculus', and that I strive to get a good education so that I may have the freetime someday to truly sit back, play around and learn the finer aspects of the Vectrex. Good luck to you glip - you asked some very good questions and I know you have a talent for good designs. Just be patient and stay your course, and the pieces will eventually come together |
|
|
|
Post by VectorX on May 21, 2012 13:46:33 GMT -5
I've put a lot of thought into this topic, because I too have a dream of someday publishing my own Vectrex game. I am being patient with this goal, because honestly I don't have a clue where to begin. There should still be Christopher Tumber tutorials to download in regards to this very subject. They're supposed to be pretty good so I'd start there. |
|
|
|
Post by gliptitude on May 21, 2012 14:17:24 GMT -5
Part of what turned me onto the Vectrex was what looked to me like a vibrant and compelling homebrew scene. Is it not? For such an extremely obscure console, even one new game a year would be considered a success. (recent Odyssey and Astrocade homebrews come to mind) Oh no it totally is an awesome scene, just like it appeared to me to be before i got into it. I was just describing "then" and "now", that i didn't see other console homebrew and now i do, but seeing the rest the vectrex still looks to me to be in a class of its own. ... In reference to some of your other remarks desfeek, i'm slowly making progress on some game concepts. Not too concerned about it. I was really just interested with this thread topic in figuring out if NES development could be as cool and solid as vectrex is, if perhaps there is a nes guy out there who is as prolific and results oriented as (Fury)... I'm not at all poised to meet this NES person or take on a new project right now, but the question just occured to me. ... I think it would be cool to have like a game idea sandbox around here, for you and whoever else to talk about games that don't exist yet. A linear forum thread might get too tedious? I see a lot of discussion elsewhere about games in development or clones that people want to see made, but i rarely see people exchanging new ideas... |
|
|
|
Post by VectorX on May 21, 2012 14:54:10 GMT -5
... I think it would be cool to have like a game idea sandbox around here, for you and whoever else to talk about games that don't exist yet. A linear forum thread might get too tedious? I see a lot of discussion elsewhere about games in development or clones that people want to see made, but i rarely see people exchanging new ideas... Maybe some people don't want ideas being stolen  That's actually a bit rare in general as far as entertainment goes (not many lawsuits are filed for people claiming their song lyrics were stolen, for example) but sometimes it does happen. Personally I'm not going to air out my ideas either except for knock-off games I discussed months ago on here (like a sequel to Spike). However, I'm not going to risk good ideas going down the toilet either, since YOUR idea of using Art Master to convey game ideas convinced me to do the same (need that program plus Light Pen first though ), film it with voiceover explaining the game concepts, and maybe even go as far as to putting it in a will with an attorney to release the idea and have someone else take it over if I bite the dust before figuring out how to program games! Because Oliver of the Vectrex Museum has done a similar thing in keeping his Vectrex sites going a while after he's gone as well. Because if I can't make one or more games, there's no reason someone else can't, is the way I see it |
|
|
|
Post by Mayhem on May 21, 2012 15:15:42 GMT -5
The reason for the donor cartridges for NES homebrews, although this doesn't apply all the time as modern boards and cases do exist like for the Vectrex, is probably down to the mappers. Mappers are the NES equivalent of bank switching and there are a LOT of different types, mostly handled by a separate chip on the board. Hence it's a lot easier to produce a homebrew that uses a certain mapper by recycling an existing game that had the same mapper chip on its board, instead of producing new ones.
|
|
|
|
Post by gliptitude on May 21, 2012 15:27:48 GMT -5
The reason for the donor cartridges for NES homebrews, although this doesn't apply all the time as modern boards and cases do exist like for the Vectrex, is probably down to the mappers. Mappers are the NES equivalent of bank switching and there are a LOT of different types, mostly handled by a separate chip on the board. Hence it's a lot easier to produce a homebrew that uses a certain mapper by recycling an existing game that had the same mapper chip on its board, instead of producing new ones. Hmm, interesting. Thank you, this does certainly address some of my questions. |
|
|
|
Post by gliptitude on May 21, 2012 16:02:17 GMT -5
Maybe some people don't want ideas being stolen That's actually a bit rare in general as far as entertainment goes (not many lawsuits are filed for people claiming their song lyrics were stolen, for example) but sometimes it does happen. Personally I'm not going to air out my ideas either except for knock-off games I discussed months ago on here (like a sequel to Spike). However, I'm not going to risk good ideas going down the toilet either, since YOUR idea of using Art Master to convey game ideas convinced me to do the same (need that program plus Light Pen first though ), film it with voiceover explaining the game concepts, and maybe even go as far as to putting it in a will with an attorney to release the idea and have someone else take it over if I bite the dust before figuring out how to program games! Because Oliver of the Vectrex Museum has done a similar thing in keeping his Vectrex sites going a while after he's gone as well. Because if I can't make one or more games, there's no reason someone else can't, is the way I see it Ha ha. Yes I understand. I think the ideal video game brainstorming session would take place in a real life meeting, with a pad of paper and drawing implements etc. I've been shocked how difficult it has been for me to get any of my local friends to participate in this though. ...With the challenges involved in producing a complete game, I'd think a lot of gamers would freely share their ideas, just hoping to see them incorporated into an actual game. But if you have more complete concepts, or if you are sort of starting out from the beginning with the goal of authoring a game, like i think most of us in this thread are, of course we are somewhat guarded and sentimental. ... But there's only a handful of people I think who are capable of stealing and implementing our Vectrex ideas, and I don't see any of them going to that effort. I had ArtMaster on a multi-cart, but recently picked up a hard copy for about $4. The light pen i've been using is the $25 Recycledgamer item. Shouldn't be too hard for you to get started no? I've had a very general idea for a long time for a game that plays with the forces of gravity. It's not unprecedented at all, but I've never really seen a game that focuses on that in a deep or SUCCESSFUL way. What I mean is a platformer game where the player runs and jumps in an environment with less gravity (like the moon). Really I'm already stealing from the original Buck Rogers comic strips, where they have "anti-gravity belts", and I imagine if they worked the way they work in the comic strip (which is not sound physics), it would be super fun to do this in a current gen 3rd person game, flip the belt ON and then jump from one side of a meadow to the other... This idea leads me to more general ideas though, of INVISIBLE FORCES in video games, which could be more relevant to a Vectrex game. Wind, magnets, and also just invisible enemies - would all enable interesting Vectrex game scenarios with a minimum (zero) of vectors. ... So there is one of my favorite secret ideas! Go ahead and try to steal it! |
|
|
|
Post by desfeek on May 21, 2012 16:32:24 GMT -5
Also, are there multicarts for these systems? That could be another reason, since many of the 'trex games (Nebula Commander, I think all of Dondzila's stuff, several of FURY's, V-Frogger, etc.) can just be loaded onto a cart to play on a Vectrex. I don't know if the same can be said for other systems. Oh yeah, NES has the CF card-based PowerPak, Genesis has the SD card-based Everdrive, 2600 has the SD card-based Harmony cart, 7800 has the (rare) MMC card-based Cuttlecart 2...pretty much every cartridge-based console has a mass-media ROM selector cart (even the Mattel Aquarius just got one). They are a godsend There should still be Christopher Tumber tutorials to download in regards to this very subject. They're supposed to be pretty good so I'd start there. all of these are very fun to read through Oh no it totally is an awesome scene, just like it appeared to me to be before i got into it. I was just describing "then" and "now", that i didn't see other console homebrew and now i do, but seeing the rest the vectrex still looks to me to be in a class of its own. My fault, I think I skipped over the first part of your second paragraph when I was replying. I was really just interested with this thread topic in figuring out if NES development could be as cool and solid as vectrex is, if perhaps there is a nes guy out there who is as prolific and results oriented as (Fury)... Yessir! Sivak - sivak.nintendoage.com/James Todd - chunkout.com/?page_id=7Brian Parker - www.retrousb.com/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=58I see a lot of discussion elsewhere about games in development or clones that people want to see made, but i rarely see people exchanging new ideas... We could talk all day about games we'd like to see made, but at the end of the day its up to the 5(?) people worldwide who are capable and willing to program Vectrex games to actually go out and make them. I loved your Battlezone ideas thread, show us some of your new stuff! (unless its a secret hehe) |
|
|
|
Post by gliptitude on May 21, 2012 17:02:34 GMT -5
I see a lot of discussion elsewhere about games in development or clones that people want to see made, but i rarely see people exchanging new ideas... We could talk all day about games we'd like to see made, but at the end of the day its up to the 5(?) people worldwide who are capable and willing to program Vectrex games to actually go out and make them. I loved your Battlezone ideas thread, show us some of your new stuff! (unless its a secret hehe) Heh maybe you were still working on your post when my last post published. I'm willing to share my INVISIBLE FORCES idea. Just the type of thing I'd love to see discussed too. I guess it's not so much an original idea, but just an aspect of video games worth deeper exploration, possibly something that a new game could really fetishize for a gratifying effect. With this particular "idea" success would be all in the particular execution of it by the game makers. Sound physics (not necessarily realistic) would be very important. Basically this has already been done in other games with poor physics. As I'm thinking about this concept it's kind of reminding me of some of the essential rules of traditional animation, which a teacher tried to teach me in a class years ago. 'Stretching and Squashing' are major concepts in character animation. If you conceive of the character's movement as a sequence of static poses (the way most early cartoon animators did), the result is usually very ridged movement (still animated and nice to look at though). But if you allow the character to change shape in exaggerated ways, which sort of over articulate the movement, the result is a much more dynamic animation. This was firmly laid out (if not invented) by the first 50+ years of Disney animation, and a large part of why these cartoons are so influential. I'm not suggesting the Stretch and Squash lessons are completely absent in current video game animation, or that video game animators don't spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff. Also, I'm not really bringing Stretch/Squash up as directly relevant to this INVISIBLE FORCES concept. Just that I think it parallels it. And I think most games start out with a story or a literal subject or a series of key images, rather than a physics profile. huh not done explaining myself, but i'm running out of time. maybe i've conveyed something here, IDK. |
|
|
|
Post by VectorX on May 21, 2012 17:43:12 GMT -5
I think the ideal video game brainstorming session would take place in a real life meeting, with a pad of paper and drawing implements etc. I've been shocked how difficult it has been for me to get any of my local friends to participate in this though. It can be hard to get people to do things...it wouldn't surprise ME at all if no one participated in something like that! With the challenges involved in producing a complete game, I'd think a lot of gamers would freely share their ideas, just hoping to see them incorporated into an actual game. Sometimes ideas are even asked for in games, some of which have made it into Vectrex homebrews... But if you have more complete concepts, or if you are sort of starting out from the beginning with the goal of authoring a game, like i think most of us in this thread are, of course we are somewhat guarded and sentimental. That's me! But there's only a handful of people I think who are capable of stealing and implementing our Vectrex ideas, and I don't see any of them going to that effort. No. People who can program games are just going to do it. Most ideas aren't original anyway (Dondzila, Kristof), but I don't think anyone really cares, since one, it's new Vectrex stuff, and two, they're usually going to come out good anyway! I had ArtMaster on a multi-cart, but recently picked up a hard copy for about $4. The light pen i've been using is the $25 Recycledgamer item. Shouldn't be too hard for you to get started no? Wow, insane deal there. I have a friend of mine who thinks he has a copy of it for me (he'll have to check his inventory) so I still might be able to snag it that way. I doubt he'll part with it for only $4 though! What I mean is a platformer game where the player runs and jumps in an environment with less gravity (like the moon).So there is one of my favorite secret ideas! Go ahead and try to steal it! Nah; I *could*, as you have an idea for it, and I could try stealing it, and the two games wouldn't be anything alike. But I wouldn't bother though: if I ever learn to make games, I'd just go with my own ideas. |
|
|
|
Post by desfeek on May 21, 2012 18:47:21 GMT -5
wow that's funny - yes, I was still working on that post. Great minds think alike it seems  "INVISIBLE FORCES" reminds me of a Digipen (my school) student game project, A Flipping Good Time. Maybe this isn't exactly what you had in mind, but its what I though of: www.digipen.edu/?id=1170&proj=24624 (free download at the bottom of the page) Thanks for that bit about Stretch/Squash with regards to Disney animation - I hadn't heard that before. |
|
That's actually a bit rare in general as far as entertainment goes (not many lawsuits are filed for people claiming their song lyrics were stolen, for example) but sometimes it does happen.
