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Post by garryg on Mar 20, 2022 12:40:26 GMT -5
I suppose the easy answer is that a straight port is something that a lot of 'retro enthusiasts' may be familiar with.
But to me it can also get a bit stale. In my opinion some of the best homebrew games for the Vectrex are ether origonal ideas or something taken from a 'game type' of the past but not a clone of a particular game, with some exceptions.
This is what I tried to do with my games, although I'm nowhere near one of the better Vectrex homebrewers out there.
If I ever do get my Vectrex fixed I was planning on releasing my version of Circus for the Vectrex, which was a simple 'circus like' bounce physics game. But now I see someone has ported the actual Circus game to the Vectrex.
If that is what people want that version looks, and appears to play, pretty much exactly like the origonal Circus game, which appeared to be what a lot of comments wanted my game to be. So in that respect the new game would be seen as much better.
With 'Trapped' I tried to do something a bit different for the Vectrex, and this was just basically a test of the maze-engine I built. The intention for this engine was for it to be used for the much larger and more RPG like 'Escaped,' which was partly built, lost, and partly built again, but to a lesser degree!
I haven't mentioned it before but just before my Vectrex died I had started work on a new game, preliminarily called 'Ship Shape' which was very, very, loosely based on a Jet Pack type concept. But now I'm thinking do people actually want origonal games? Or do they just want same looking/playing ports of old games that they recognise.
Making a Jetpack clone/port would be much less ambitious than what I was planning, but would most people just prefer to see an authentic looking/playing clone of JetPack?
To be honest this along with my Vectrex breaking has kind of disheartened me now, which is a shame as I actually liked programming for the Vectrex even though I was far from the best and havent worked on anything worthwhile recently. I just hope other people do pick up programming for the Vectrex in the future, although like me a lot of potentially new programmers are now getting priced out.
Back in the day people were always trying to bring out new game concepts. And I'm not really interested in making a straight out port of anything at all. Do people just want retro ports on there vintage systems now?
I apologise if this just sounds like soured grapes, it wasn't meant to be!
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Post by Malban on Mar 20, 2022 13:59:42 GMT -5
Hi! I can just speak for myself.
I have a hard time coming up with NEW game ideas and concepts. I actually like to have my path drawn out before me.
With Vectorblade I knew from the start what I was trying todo, as with Release and certainly with Karl Quappe.
I guess I am not really an innovation kind of guy. That is MY own reason for reusing old ideas.
I did those, because I like the Vectrex, I like programming and I always sought the challenge of "can it be done?" and "how good can I do it?". Nobody asked me to port anything - and I actually also never asked anyone - "would you like to see these games?".
I just did, I liked it and I also like the outcome.
As much as I like extrinsic gratification like praise and fame... I mostly did these for the intrinsic gratification of myself having a finished nice product done.
With my latest programmings (doing PURE ports of e.g. Akalabeth and Telengard) - additionally to the above there is an own personal relationship (at least with Telengard), which I liked to be reconnected with.
The "acceptance" of Telengard was a bit underwhelming :-) - not a single reply in this forum or on Atari Age... but still I would do it again - I happen to like Telengard very much.
Perhaps the question therefor is not so much: "What would other people like to see/play on a Vectrex?"
But the question is more: "What would you like to do and what gives yourself the greatest sense of accomplishment". Doing a "big" game is always dangerous - because there is a thread of not being able to finish it. By losing sight of things, by getting other interests etc etc etc.
Programming a game (anf finishing it) involves 10% fun stuff, 50% boring stuff and 40% desperate debugging. That can wear the strongest guy down - especially if you are doing it all alone. Vectorblade (for me) was my limit - anything bigger - I don't know, whether I would have been able to finish it. Usually I program things in a couple of months. VB took a couple of years...
Actually my personal feeling is - that there are not too many Vectrex "players" out there, but many people who think it is a cool thing and like to see cool stuff on it - and to collect some of it, and show others and tell others "hey I have a Vectrex!".
I am not judging here... I do not really PLAY much Vectrex either... but still I would not be surprised if my Vectrex was one of the 10 most used Vectrex in the world the last 3 years :-).
Doing cool stuff gets peoples immediate attention for a couple of days... and than it wears of... and your five minutes of fame are "over". Do it for yourself! Is all I can say.
Cheers
Malban
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Post by VectorX on Mar 20, 2022 14:27:03 GMT -5
Do people just want retro ports on there vintage systems now? It doesn't matter to me personally if it's a new game or a clone of another one, just as long as they're fun. The "acceptance" of Telengard was a bit underwhelming :-) - not a single reply in this forum or on Atari Age... but still I would do it again - I happen to like Telengard very much. I'd say Telengard *might* be so obscure that's why you never got a reply but Atari Age has many more active members than on here. It doesn't seem like no one would have heard of it! (It sounds cool to me but I'd never heard of, nor played the original.) |
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Post by D-Type on Mar 20, 2022 17:56:23 GMT -5
None of the Vectrex stuff I'm working on currently or thinking about for the future is original, the challenge for me is making something work well on the unique hardware that the Vectrex provides. I doubt anyone will play my current WIP game for more than one or two goes, but that's OK because I'm doing it for me and I've learned a tonne of stuff in the process, especially how much effort is involved! I'm more interested in the mindshare with others who are having fun hacking in the same space, they're the ones who really matter. It's about the journey, not the destination  |
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Post by garryg on Mar 20, 2022 19:42:44 GMT -5
Maybe I'm thinking of this wrong now. Sounds like games are being released as things to own rather than something anyone is going to spend any amount of time with.
I can see he argument for making a game that is as close as possible to something you remember. But to me 'just' remaking somebody elses game isn't really interesting. The 'fun' for me has always been about coming up with something different, ever since I started programming my VIC 20 in basic way back when!
So far it sounds like my distinction is a fairly mute point though. If I ever get my Vectrex running again I may look at turning Circus Vectrex back into the Bouncy-Spike game I first started making. There wouldn't really be much difference from the unreleased 'final' version that nobody has seen!
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Post by Rapetou33 on Mar 21, 2022 2:02:48 GMT -5
Hello Garry, Chris and D-type (sorry. Don't remember who you areš)...
Thank you all for the pleasure and joy you gave me by playing my old machine with new games... I am always delighted at seeing what you can obtain from it. Hope you had pleasure by coding as I have by playing... I would like to be able to code for all the reasons that you described.. Challenge, pleasure, own satisfaction.. But I am unable and I have to do with it... Please go ahead, you are making happy people!!!!
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Post by Peer on Mar 22, 2022 6:49:21 GMT -5
Hello Garry, Chris and D-type (sorry. Don't remember who you areš)... Thank you all for the pleasure and joy you gave me by playing my old machine with new games... I am always delighted at seeing what you can obtain from it. Hope you had pleasure by coding as I have by playing... I would like to be able to code for all the reasons that you described.. Challenge, pleasure, own satisfaction.. But I am unable and I have to do with it... Please go ahead, you are making happy people!!!! I can only repeat what Malban and D-Type already have said. I completely agree with both of them. Curiosity and intrinsic motivation are what primarily drives me. And I simply enjoy programming just for the pure fun of it. If in addition to that there are also people (e.g. like Rapetou33) out there who actually play the stuff, then that makes me happy and the whole thing even more worth the effort. So here is also a big thank you to all the players/testers/feedback-givers out there!
Many Cheers, Peer
PS: As a side note, I think most homebrew (Vectrex) games are neither 100% completely new ideas nor 100% identical recreations or ports of an original, but rather creative adaptations or combinations of existing game principles, with personal ideas and a personal touch of the programmer added. And that is a "genre" I really like and enjoy.
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Post by ledzep on Apr 12, 2022 2:37:41 GMT -5
As a game fan, and with most of my all-time favorite arcade games being vectors, I see it as the following -
1) I don't care what kind of game it is, so long as it plays well. So, not boring, not predictable, not easy. Therefore, an original game idea? Great! A faithful port of a great game? Great! An original game that looks/sounds lame and is uninteresting? Probably won't buy it. A port of some weak arcade game original? Probably won't care. Now, a "fixed" version of an arcade game where the parts everybody hated are addressed and improved? Ok, sounds interesting. Same goes for classic console games like from the Atari 2600. Surround would be a cool idea though I suspect filling the screen with lines would turn into flicker hell. But there's also Dodge 'Em, Combat (or Tank), Yar's Revenge, etc.
2) Raster games probably outnumber vector games 100-to-1 (more, actually). So there is the desire by most Vectrex fans I know to see the missing vector arcade games ported to the Vectrex. I couldn't believe that Battlezone (Stramash Zone) actually made it to the Vectrex! Of course we're still missing Black Widow, Space Duel, etc. There are only like 35 total games but it would be nice to get them all eventually. But done right! Like, I would love to see an Omega Race with the correct controllers. Much more expensive, obviously. But the dream lives!
3) Beyond that, porting games that are raster but could easily be vector works, too. Berzerk is a great example, the original was so minimalist it was practically vector already. Wizard Of Wor, Joust, other games with a lot of black background. I know some games already exist but a few were so limited edition nobody can find them or afford them. So a widely-available version would be great.
4) I love original games, too, when they appear. I mean, all those arcade games were originally original ideas until they took off and other companies cloned them, right? I also like "improved" ports. A great example is Space Invaders on the Atari 2600 with all the non-arcade options. I think Asteroids had that, too? I like that Space Wars has a single player mode even if the A.I. ain't that great, the arcade version never had that.
5) This is a tired argument that many don't agree with, but packaging matters especially since the Vectrex is shaped like an arcade cabinet and has the colored overlays. So getting the overlay and box (and manual) along with the game itself makes the cool game even better (again, like Stramash Zone). Some people are cheap or live in a cardboard box so they don't want to waste space with all that crap, they just want the ROM or a bare circuit board, that should be an option, too. But part of the attraction of console games is the whole game, not just the program itself. I prefer Atari 5200 homebrews with boxes, too. There's a new game at AtariAge that will actually come with controller overlays! FINALLY! Stupid minor detail, but that matters to me, "Just like what Atari sold back in the day."
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Post by VectorX on Apr 12, 2022 12:17:32 GMT -5
I also like "improved" ports. A great example is Space Invaders on the Atari 2600 with all the non-arcade options. I think Asteroids had that, too? Right, it had 66 game variations in all. There were either no options, hyperspace, flip (where you tug down on the joystick and your ship would instantly flip around 180 degrees) or shields (NOT like Asteroids Deluxe though; shields allow u. f. o.s and asteroids to pass through your ship without harm [via some miracle]). Plus you got options on when you got extra ships, along with flipping the difficulty switch up to the 'a' position would cause the u. f. o.s to come out like on the arcade original; without the 'a' position it'd take forever for them to come out. |
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Post by ledzep on Apr 13, 2022 2:37:30 GMT -5
I also like "improved" ports. A great example is Space Invaders on the Atari 2600 with all the non-arcade options. I think Asteroids had that, too? Right, it had 66 game variations in all. There were either no options, hyperspace, flip (where you tug down on the joystick and your ship would instantly flip around 180 degrees) or shields (NOT like Asteroids Deluxe though; shields allow u. f. o.s and asteroids to pass through your ship without harm [via some miracle]). Plus you got options on when you got extra ships, along with flipping the difficulty switch up to the 'a' position would cause the u. f. o.s to come out like on the arcade original; without the 'a' position it'd take forever for them to come out. Ya, I'm sure there are many arcade games that could be more fun in a more plays sense if only X or Y were options. I think Space Wars was one of the few arcade games to let you pick from a lot of options. I think another cool option would be porting prototypes that never made it to the arcades. For example, this game that was prototyped but never released - arcadeblogger.com/2022/04/09/freddy-flames-centuris-lost-arcade-game/Although it might be better on the Atari 5200 or some other raster console. |
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Post by jgkspsx on Apr 30, 2022 19:30:02 GMT -5
I like originality in games, but that doesnāt mean necessarily a whole new concept. New concepts are hard to come by! Especially ones that can be implemented in the constraints of the original hardware. I think Vectorblade is an example of a game that has a super original feel to it even though it draws inspiration from Warblade (which Iāve never played) and its predecessors. The way it incorporates Vectrex memes into the game is really funny and makes it feel very unique to the Vectrex. I am sorry for not talking about Malbanās Akalabeth port more, although I really enjoy it and it is probably my most played Vectrex game of the last year. The funny thing is that I have only ever played Akalabeth on the Vectrex, on the Vectrex32 and on Malbanās  Brett Walachās Spike Gets Squished is another recent game Iāve played a lot. It stars Spike (big bonus points), is super addictive, is a concept I have never played before even though it has antecedents on Game and Watch and C64, and it has that āone more tryā addictiveness. The Vectrex has a great mix of original games and ports, a mix that compares very favorably to any other homebrew scene out there. |
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Post by retroclassicsuk on May 24, 2022 15:19:55 GMT -5
Hi Malban- MalbanI was directed here from the youtube video about Telengard by Down the Rabbit hole and felt obliged to register and comment rather than just lurk as I have been. There is no need to respond but for what it's worth..... With Vectorblade I knew from the start what I was trying todo, as with Release and certainly with Karl Quappe. All superb games and enhance the "original" which cannot be a bad thing. Being able to experience old things in a unique way on the vectrex is something you have mastered but also bought new light to and exposed games to new players. You have not just ported something you've enhanced all of those games The "acceptance" of Telengard was a bit underwhelming :-) - not a single reply in this forum or on Atari Age... but still I would do it again - I happen to like Telengard very much. Agreed but you have to remember the Vectrex is a unique experience one that is difficult to emulate on a device and get that vectrex experience, whether it be the unique graphics, sound or the controller all of which are not done justice in an emulator no matter if its VIDE, Para or anything else. All three things are very unique and only real hardware can be used to get the full experience. I played it in emulation and sorry but it's not the same and not even close Not everyone has the ability to load a rom to a flash cart or pcb to test on real hardware and the people who seem to own the elusive vecfever or similar are either dev's in their own right or collectors not "players" of the Vectrex so I would expect them to enjoy experimenting etc rather than sitting there for hours gaming playing games, that definatley feels the way of the FB group as there are a lot of posts about collections or WIP not so much about high scores, and original games etc On a personal note I have real hardware and multicarts etc but no flash cart to load Telengrad to experience it on real hardware so have no way to enjoy it to its maximum especially as a emulator does not do it for me so unless it is available on a cart numerous players won't be able to experience it or feedback or enjoy it. Providing feedback running on an emulator isn't fair and tbh shouldn't be encouraged as from my experience they are like chalk and cheese Actually my personal feeling is - that there are not too many Vectrex "players" out there, but many people who think it is a cool thing and like to see cool stuff on it - and to collect some of it, and show others and tell others "hey I have a Vectrex!".As I said I have a real world Vectrex and probably play 15-20 hours a week on it, it's the number one console in our house and is used way more than the PS5 mainly down to the uniqueness and the fact I can't experience vectrex any other way, I can't enjoy it on my phone, ipad or PC the same as I can most other consoles, I can't experience the value of the overlays and more importantly the controller which is impossible to explain until you've played an analogue one (I have one from Victor) So in summary there are limitations to what games for the vectrex can deliver without having a real working model and investing time and effort into getting the most from it, and dropping a ROM for people to experience who do not have a flash cart doesn't do the game justice, especially the ones from yourself. Building forthe Vectrex is not easy so everything that is released is an achievement but in my opinion the only way to truly experience a game made for it is on a real machine and cart in hand but appreciate that is not always cost effective to do. What you have provided to this community is second to none so whilst I agree it's good to "do it for yourself" the joy you have bought to many whether through VIDE, Baremetal, your games or general expertise and openness is not anything that is seen elsewhere. So on behalf of the community thanks and keep being awesome |
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Post by Malban on May 26, 2022 16:15:44 GMT -5
Thank you for your kind words.
Just to be clear I am ok with the reception of Telengard.
Its a weird game by todays standards and because the size I needed for the port - it cannot be played by everyone (or even many).
Furthermore I must admit, at the moment I actually make heavy use of my new PS5 and Vectrex activities are a bit on the low burn.
I also started several online courses regarding programming and using the Unity engineā¦
Cheers Malban
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Post by kokovec on Jun 9, 2022 15:14:42 GMT -5
Hi! I guess I am not really an innovation kind of guy. That is MY own reason for reusing old ideas. Says the guy who created VIDE  |
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Post by jbrodack on Jul 26, 2022 10:16:15 GMT -5
Retro systems seem to attract a lot of programmers that like the challenge of dealing with many limitations. Some of the more popular homebrew systems like Atari 2600 get some more creative games especially with easier to use tools like batari basic. Maybe some of the more creative types who prefer design to programming can collaborate with more the enjoy programming for the challenge types.
I personally enjoy playing all game types and sometimes I discover or start to enjoy for the first time a classic game because of the vectrex version. I do sometimes wish there were more original idea vectrex games but also sometimes the game ends up a bit limited or a bit buggy.
Something like Release is perfect where it's not based on an old game but it has a great fresh design behind it. So if not able to come up with a new idea maybe find more obscure or newer games to get your ideas from so it feels new.
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