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Post by playvectrex on Nov 5, 2023 10:34:57 GMT -5
Thank you for organizing this great competition. As every year, it was great fun and there were some amazing scores to marvel at. But I'll go mad if the soccer- and the pinballgame are included again in the next competition >_< Whole heartedly agree with both ... and those games should really not be included in a competition. Soccer does require a grindy skill, similar to Star Trek, Star Castle, Mine Storm, Solar Quest, etc.. but it's so basic and mind numbing I can't do it. In the end I chose to play more Polar Rescue and Tee Time  And if you are unlucky in Soccer and lose the ball, you must reset the game if you want to be in first place. Very dispiriting gameplay. Conversely, with Wet Cat I could grind that all day trying for high scores. It's such a pleasure playing over and over... each individual game is not that long. Sure you get unlucky at times with nowhere to jump to, but mostly you die due to your mistakes or missteps. And retrying is fast. Instead of keeping a game because it's a GCE original... perhaps some thought can be given to the fact that only 5 people played it with full scores out of 43. (12%). Last year only 2/28 (7%) people played it. I think the next lowest played game was Polar Rescue (18/43 ... 42%). Maybe add a rule that a game is not re-included if it gets less than 15% gameplay FYI: Last year there were only two valid soccer entries, yet points for 3rd were given to Machampion (and others) only playing Game 2... so yeah, maybe playing two different games for the same game is also something we should strike down. It's quite challenging to keep track of, and takes twice as long |
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Post by playvectrex on Nov 5, 2023 10:37:24 GMT -5
Which reminds me that I should give normal mode in Cavern Rescue a spin tonight. The vectrex is still standing on the kitchen table, so why shouldn't I? That's a great way to practice for hardcore mode as well ;-) And that first time you get to the end with one life and a high score you'll be kicking yourself (should have played on hardcore!) I approve of adding a "Vectrex nook" in your kitchen... just slide a chair over for gameplay any time! |
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Post by Chainsaw on Nov 5, 2023 11:08:16 GMT -5
I tried soccer two times, but was not patient enough to learn it, also I'm no soccer fan in general. If I read the comments above, I think I didn't miss anything? And Spinball ist really a gambling game, my high score has nothing to do with tactic or talent, just had a lot of luck to keep 2 balls a long time in the upper part of the pinball table. But at least, a Spinball game lasts not long, can be funny anyway, even if it's a lot of luck. But yeah, there are a lot of other games that are much more motivating, will also continue with Wet Cat and sure, looking forward for the final version of Count Vecula. Also some other games of the Vectrex academy that were not in Vector War are great to play. Oh Peer did I miss a post, when you wrote, that you found out some small tactic in Spinball, to keep the ball at least for a while or scoring a bit for a while? I would still be interested about this, if it is possible to explain it just in text / without video etc. |
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Post by nexus6 on Nov 5, 2023 11:11:04 GMT -5
Conversely, with Wet Cat I could grind that all day trying for high scores. It's such a pleasure playing over and over... each individual game is not that long. Sure you get unlucky at times with nowhere to jump to, but mostly you die due to your mistakes or missteps. And retrying is fast. Yes, for me was Wet Cat one of the highlights in the gameselection in this year. |
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Post by playvectrex on Nov 5, 2023 11:12:16 GMT -5
I tried soccer two times, but was not patient enough to learn it, also I'm no soccer fan in general. If I read the comments above, I think I didn't miss anything? And Spinball ist really a gambling game, my high score has nothing to do with tactic or talent, just had a lot of luck to keep 2 balls a long time in the upper part of the pinball table. But at least, a Spinball game lasts not long, can be funny anyway, even if it's a lot of luck. But yeah, there are a lot of other games that are much more motivating, will also continue with Wet Cat and sure, looking forward for the final version of Count Vecula. Also some other games of the Vectrex academy that were not in Vector War are great to play. Oh Peer did I miss a post, when you wrote, that you found out some small tactic in Spinball, to keep the ball at least for a while or scoring a bit for a while? I would still be interested about this, if it is possible to explain it just in text / without video etc. I think this is just, if the bonus star appears... and you happen to be down there... try to be patient and get it for multi-ball... and get it again to block the holes. But don't try to go down there to get it... as you said most points can be had just bouncing around at the top |
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Post by nexus6 on Nov 5, 2023 11:16:19 GMT -5
And Spinball ist really a gambling game, my high score has nothing to do with tactic or talent, just had a lot of luck to keep 2 balls a long time in the upper part of the pinball table. But at least, a Spinball game lasts not long, can be funny anyway, even if it's a lot of luck. I totally agree. I don’t know how this game was aproved for a release back in the days. The ball has it own physics. The lower table has no gamedesign and offers a lot free space for the ball to get lost. |
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Post by Chainsaw on Nov 5, 2023 11:26:10 GMT -5
And Spinball ist really a gambling game, my high score has nothing to do with tactic or talent, just had a lot of luck to keep 2 balls a long time in the upper part of the pinball table. But at least, a Spinball game lasts not long, can be funny anyway, even if it's a lot of luck. I totally agree. I don’t know how this game was aproved for a release back in the days. The ball has it own physics. The lower table has no gamedesign and offers a lot free space for the ball to get lost. Oh there are a lot of games on old platforms, where I'm asking a bit, how they were "approved". Or if they had at least some quality check. There are also a lot of stories about Atari 2600 games, that were coded in a few weeks and went just to the cartridge factory one day after the game / code was finished. Same we see in a lot of bugs in Vectrex games. Best example Web Wars, where Peer found after 40 years a bug about the Trophy Room 2. Or Mine Storm Level 13, other bugs in Bedlam, Spike, Cosmic Chasm, and more. It is a very interesting topic. But at least: The games always were working. Not like today, where you get the Day 1 patch and many more patches, after the game is published. Some of these games will not work properly anymore in 10 or 20 years, when the servers of the games are down, and no patches are available anymore. Vectrex games will still work in 100 years, and people like Peer still bugfix them today :-) |
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Post by fruktodlaren on Nov 5, 2023 11:43:06 GMT -5
While speaking of academy-games, I want to tip my hat towards VecDrift. It is a fine line to tread between lagom challenging and gameplay that wears the player out to a rage quit. I think VecDrift walked that line superbly. The challenge was still there even after days of practice. Sure it took slightly longer to get to the points you wanted to work towards every time, but even so I still came back for more over and over again.
A game that will see more play time from me in the days to come is surely Cavern Rescue. I recognize so many elements from my favorite 2D cave flyer games, yet applied in a slightly different manner. Vectrex needs more Cave Flyer games and Cavern Rescue cures that itch very well.
I will definitely be picking up Count Vecula when it gets released later.
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Post by mozie on Nov 5, 2023 12:04:44 GMT -5
While speaking of academy-games, I want to tip my hat towards VecDrift. It is a fine line to tread between lagom challenging and gameplay that wears the player out to a rage quit. I think VecDrift walked that line superbly. The challenge was still there even after days of practice. Sure it took slightly longer to get to the points you wanted to work towards every time, but even so I still came back for more over and over again. A game that will see more play time from me in the days to come is surely Cavern Rescue. I recognize so many elements from my favorite 2D cave flyer games, yet applied in a slightly different manner. Vectrex needs more Cave Flyer games and Cavern Rescue cures that itch very well. I will definitely be picking up Count Vecula when it gets released later. Agreed Tony I loved vecdrift and spent a long time playing it for fun,I seen it as a vectrex version of outrun as a basis and I think it could be great by just adding stages with a start and finish line say every 60 or so points and maybe a tune if possible. Pinball I played a bit after but apart from trying to keep the ball in the top playfield as much as possible and holding it with top left flipper there was a lot of luck involved, every single time I got a multiball one drained immediately and sometimes both so it was very frustrating trying to learn how to play it. Crazy thing about happy Bird was after a while I started seeing the bird as kirby and jumping on the platforms rather than flying  collecting the down arrows as much as possible to slow it down was essential at the start but became impossible after a certain speed. The Count I had spent many hours on prior and the new version waw great but after playing through it so much I don't have time to try best Brett's score again. What were the strategies for star castle? I have 100k it before many times and my strategy is to move left to right around the edge of the castle throwing 3 or 4 shots when entering the screen from the right..ud you nail this you can do it until you get bored, it's very repetitive and you may lose the odd life due to a trailing missile but you'll have built up so many it won't really have an impact also pressing fire just before a missile hits you from the rear blows it up. Very boring but if works |
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Post by Peer on Nov 5, 2023 12:04:57 GMT -5
Interesting discussions going on here. I will try to chime in later in the evening whenever I find a couple of minutes.
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Post by hcmffm on Nov 5, 2023 12:36:50 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing the excel calculations, I think we can simplify it. .. Some notes - actually this matter starts enerving me a bit: - Heads Up soccer was played last year for the very first time in a Vector War. At that time a person suggested to also play GAME 3 because of the different AI - that's why both game 2 and game 3 are played.
- Combined calculation for Heads Up was introduced and used last year, see last year's highscore list. Last year there were numerous players that played just GAME2, you (Brett) were even one of those players.
- At no point in the rules it says that you have to play GAME 2 and GAME 3 to get points.
ATM, I really don't understand your (Brett's) critizising the way the calculation of Heads Up worked. Last year this didn't bother anyone including you. In future Vector Wars this might be changed, but I won't change a calculation method afterwards; a calculation method that had been applied for two Vector Wars, now. Changing calculation method would even change the overall winner of the Vector War XIII which is currently you (Brett). |
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Post by scotthuggins on Nov 5, 2023 12:39:04 GMT -5
While speaking of academy-games, I want to tip my hat towards VecDrift. It is a fine line to tread between lagom challenging and gameplay that wears the player out to a rage quit. I think VecDrift walked that line superbly. The challenge was still there even after days of practice. Sure it took slightly longer to get to the points you wanted to work towards every time, but even so I still came back for more over and over again. A game that will see more play time from me in the days to come is surely Cavern Rescue. I recognize so many elements from my favorite 2D cave flyer games, yet applied in a slightly different manner. Vectrex needs more Cave Flyer games and Cavern Rescue cures that itch very well. I will definitely be picking up Count Vecula when it gets released later. I agree re: VecDrift. At first glance, I didn't get the appeal at all. But once i got used to using the "outter" buttons (buttons 1 and 4) to move the car from the far end of one side of the road to the far end of the other, that opened things up. It's great to get out of a pinch quickly - just lunge from one side of the road to the other out of danger and into safety. You can also stop the movement of the car going from one end to the other by pressing one of the "inner" buttons (buttons 2 and 3). And then there are there the gameplay twists of the flags that you cross which keeps it very interesting. Love the "darkness" thing where the cars are barely illuminated and hard to see. I thought VecDrift, as simple as it was, was the biggest draw out of the academy games. I also agree, some more music or sound effects would top it off. The academy game that seemed most popular was Wet Cat. I can see why, but it's too damn frustrating for me. But, that's just me complaining because I'm not good at it. I must have played that one 200 times. I hear that the platforms move side-to-side later in the game along with other unique new gameplay twists - but I cannot make it that far in it because I'm awful at it. I'm really glad the academy games are included. They have a "mini" games feel and are fun to play a few rounds when you only have 10 minutes to spare - and they are addictive. |
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Post by 50tbrd on Nov 5, 2023 12:53:44 GMT -5
Fantastic turn out. Congrats. Really wanted to submit some better scores but I really didn't have the time.
I tried to make a point of playing only the original games as if I did not have a physical cart of Vyrzon or a flashable multicart but while I could qualify with every other game, I couldn't qualify for either Game 1 or Game 2 for Heads Up. I guess I misunderstood the requirements and thought that you had to win a match in both Game 2 and Game 3 but I still couldn't maintain a lead in either mode so I gave up. Not that I'm much of a competitor though.
I'm interested to look back at the past VW competitions and see if I bested any of my previous scores.
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Post by Peer on Nov 5, 2023 13:16:58 GMT -5
Oh Peer did I miss a post, when you wrote, that you found out some small tactic in Spinball, to keep the ball at least for a while or scoring a bit for a while? I would still be interested about this, if it is possible to explain it just in text / without video etc. I think this is just, if the bonus star appears... and you happen to be down there... try to be patient and get it for multi-ball... and get it again to block the holes. But don't try to go down there to get it... as you said most points can be had just bouncing around at the top No, actually it is something else, and let me say this right away, I have not found a game-changer. Up to this Vector War I always thought of Spinball as completely random, and scoring as completely lucky. Then I found a tiny way to score some points in a controlled fashion, and for at least a certain period of time. And that surprised me, as I had not really played Spinball a lot before due to its bad reputation. Maybe this is trivial and not new, and maybe many of you are already aware of this and doing it. For me it was new. I simply did what I would try on a real life pinball table. I caught the ball with the upper left flipper, so that it comes to a complete rest on the angled flipper (while keeping button 2 pressed). Then release the flipper and immediately press button 2 again to shoot the ball straight upwards so that it hits the spinner above. If done accurately, the ball reverses and comes down again, and then you again catch it with the flipper until it comes to a complete rest. This procedure can be repeated, and each time you hit the spinner, you score 2.500 points. This may not sound much, and some good timing is required, but if you manage to do this often enough, and maybe also already have achieved a multiplier, then some several ten thousands of points can be accumulated this way. Once I used that strategy, I suddenly got beyond 100.000 points in Spinball almost every time. Add in the occasional lucky ball splitter, and high multipliers, and the right amount of luck, and the top scores are in range. |
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Post by Peer on Nov 5, 2023 13:53:31 GMT -5
I totally agree. I don’t know how this game was aproved for a release back in the days. The ball has it own physics. The lower table has no gamedesign and offers a lot free space for the ball to get lost. Oh there are a lot of games on old platforms, where I'm asking a bit, how they were "approved". Or if they had at least some quality check. There are also a lot of stories about Atari 2600 games, that were coded in a few weeks and went just to the cartridge factory one day after the game / code was finished. Same we see in a lot of bugs in Vectrex games. Best example Web Wars, where Peer found after 40 years a bug about the Trophy Room 2. Or Mine Storm Level 13, other bugs in Bedlam, Spike, Cosmic Chasm, and more. It is a very interesting topic. But at least: The games always were working. Not like today, where you get the Day 1 patch and many more patches, after the game is published. Some of these games will not work properly anymore in 10 or 20 years, when the servers of the games are down, and no patches are available anymore. Vectrex games will still work in 100 years, and people like Peer still bugfix them today :-) I think, those were management decisions, based on time-to-market pressure. They had to get the games out by a certain deadline in order to make some money. It certainly were not the programmers rushing the games out. But regardless of this, let now defend Spinball a bit: The programmers had to implement a physics-engine which models the behavior of a ball moving on a slanted plane, and its deflection from various obstacles (Billard on a slanted table). This is far from trivial. It is not rocket science, but there is lots of math involved. The main issue is that there is no easy hit detection or collision detection. You have to compute the intersection of the ball's trajectory with a given line segment, factoring in the angles of them both. It boils down to computing the intersection of two lines. Again, that is math, and it is not too complicated. For a modern machine! If you have a powerful processor and floating point arithmetic at hand, and fast sine and cosine, then this not too complicated. But on the 6809, with 16-bit integer precision, and just a total of 8K ROM and 1K RAM, this is definitely a challenge. And taking this into account, I think that Spinball maybe is not as bad as its reputation suggests. I am currently working my way through the Spinball code, and I am beginning to understand the overall structure. Maybe at some point I will be able to say more about how they modeled the ball's behavior. |
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And if you are unlucky in Soccer and lose the ball, you must reset the game if you want to be in first place. Very dispiriting gameplay. Conversely, with Wet Cat I could grind that all day trying for high scores. It's such a pleasure playing over and over... each individual game is not that long. Sure you get unlucky at times with nowhere to jump to, but mostly you die due to your mistakes or missteps. And retrying is fast.
collecting the down arrows as much as possible to slow it down was essential at the start but became impossible after a certain speed. The Count I had spent many hours on prior and the new version waw great but after playing through it so much I don't have time to try best Brett's score again. 
