Wikipedia Vectrex Police Lieutenant

[fury]

Not sure how important all this is, but there is a policeman now on duty at Wikipedia. His name is Andy Dingley. Apparently the Vectrex games list is a thorn in his side, as he has been "F"-ing with it non-stop for the past few weeks. I corrected it several times, but every time I correct it, things get worse when he then re-corrects it. It seems my games are the focus, as he has completely removed Sundance, War of the Worlds, and Warrior from the Vectrex game list. He started a discussion with me where he suggested today that the entire Vectrex game list be removed. I don't think any of us have the time to monitor it daily, like Andy does, so I'm hoping for an understanding. You can read the discussion here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Andy_Dingley

[sj]

In the UK a man such as him is known as a 'Jobsworth', as in "it's more than my job's worth to let you etc. etc.."

He sounds like a right plank.

[gliptitude]

Heh, pretty silly exchange. I can't remember how the "editors" work on wikipedia - if they are just advanced users or if they are actually wiki staff. Perhaps he's paid according to how many corrections he makes?

It looks like you have already (in the past) edited the list yourself George, so you know that is possible. ... I don't agree when he says the list is dubious etc., but I see that the References list is pretty slim and all dated 2007. ... Perhaps if you add references (these can be webpages I think), including numbered links next to your new entries, this would serve to legitimize these items, (in Dingley's mind).

Pretty stupid that the list includes 15 years of Vectrex homebrews and yet this guy is somehow surprised to hear about Sundance/WotW/Warrior. ... Probably your Vectrex ports of some of these will see wider viewership than the originals. (Certainly in the present time, but maybe even all-time). At any rate, it's of some historical significance to the originals, that the Vectrex and the modern day Vectrex programmers have enabled the preservation of vector graphics video games in this manner. I'm sure a large portion of wikipedia users who would be viewing this list would be specifically (and enthusiastically) seeking information such as this.

[TrekMD]

Why is this person removing content? Does he not like homebrew games? That is silly. Is there a way you can report it to someone higher up on Wikipedia? He shouldn't be altering content that is accurate.

[fury]

Pretty much anybody can do whatever they want at Wikipedia. Anything absurd will be quickly removed, and the user will be blocked (maybe by people like Andy?). I think that what he's doing is ridiculous. That list has remained the same for years without any issues. I usually only update the list when I release a new game. The recent updates from me all involve trying to fix what Andy messes up. I have pretty much given up on it, as I simply can't keep up with him. I believe he sleeps on a cot at Wikipedia Headquarters

[sj]

If my name was A Dingley I'd want to go round upsetting people.

[sj]

Do you reckon it's pronounced 'ding-lea' or 'ding-glee'?

[VectorX]

If he has a problem with game lists, then it sounds like by his ridiculous argument that all game lists should be deleted. And I'll bet that wouldn't go by well at all with people who put in hours doing those.

He could be borderline mentally ill by keeping on doing that over and over again to the point where he can't even admit that he's wrong. Pretty dumb, and people like that need to get a life and/or help (probably neither of which will happen, unfortunately).

[wyldephang]

Members of the Wikipedia Mixed Martial Arts Project encountered the same problem when moderators began hunting for MMA articles to delete. We were told that certain articles didn't meet the guidelines for "relevant" Wiki material, and they cited some trivial "walled garden" statute to back up their position. We nicknamed them "deletionists" during a grueling debate wherein their integrity was questioned numerous times, and it appeared that they adhered to Wikipedia's rulebook only insofar as it benefited their own agenda. For instance, they found MMA articles to be offensive, yet they felt no need to enforce the same standards upon other articles. My guess is that some Vectrex games fall under a general category of video game articles that are deemed irrelevant by the fiendish Wikipedia bureaucracy.

There may be nothing that you can do to reverse their decisions. The Wikipedia moderators are a group of pedants who've been appointed to positions of menial authority, and the worst thing you can do is provoke them because they reign over their respective jurisdictions without moderation. During the MMA article debate, I wanted to report one or two of the moderators for overstepping their boundaries, showing disregard for neutrality, and failing to act in good faith. But it was impossible to recommend them for disciplinary action because the chain of command is an unending loop of peevish faultfinders who are mutually sympathetic with each other. If you persist, they see it as a personal challenge to their authority. They'll be moved to pore over the fine print in search of mandates to evoke, and that gives them their greatest pleasure because it breaks up the monotony of their days. And if you persist too greatly, you'll be warned that your editorial privileges will be stripped. You've got to understand that Wikipedia moderators hold themselves in the highest esteem because they feel it's their holy quest to gentrify the Internet. And when they step off their golden thrones to deal with the video game subculture, they feel as if they've just brushed elbows with the peasantry, and it makes their noble blood boil with fiery irritation.

My recommendation is to focus on improving the official Vectrex Wiki, and leave the Wikipedia moderators to frolic in their cyber-fantasy world. There really is a perfectly good reason why Wikipedia articles are blackballed from scholarly literature: Wikipedia is user-edited, and only as reputable as the people who write for it, but the moderators would never want to admit that. I think they envision themselves as the modern-day Diderots or Websters of the Internet. It's quite silly, actually.

[VectorX]

Well said, as I had forgotten you have been involved with Wikipedia more in depth than most of us have in general (unless you're on a forum specifically for wiki writing ).

Especially in regards to this:

Nov 19, 2012 17:59:31 GMT -5 wyldephang said:

During the MMA article debate, I wanted to report one or two of the moderators for overstepping their boundaries, showing disregard for neutrality

Did anyone catch the Talk page of the List of Vectrex games entry? That shows how very NOT neutral this jackass is:

The original era games of 30 years ago were never really the problem though - Minestorm (note from me here: if this guy's so adamant of fixing things, how come he MADE A MISTAKE HERE? It's MINE STORM...two words!) and Tank Battle (note from me again: what the hell is "Tank Battle"?!) were very well known in their time. The trouble still, and this is still unsourced, is that most of this article is a list of games from long after the Vectrex was a museum- and eBay-piece. Do any of these games exist, and exist for the Vectrex? (Me again: uh, yes, moron...) Were there really so many coders working to write or port games for what was by 2000 a no-longer interesting vector display, once there was enough raw processor available to do it all with shaded 3D, let alone bitmaps?

Wow, that last sentence there really shows how biased he's *not* supposed to be. He's probably the type of person who spits on anything that came before the SNES, hence this load of nonsense. He needs to keep his personal feelings on this subject out of this entirely, which is clouding his judgment as an anal (as hell!) editor. Are homebrews for the Atari 2600 also a no-no, even Star Castle, which the guy who wrote it got tens of thousands of dollars in donations to make it? I guess, by the same logic, his game doesn't "count" either.

If this article is kept (as now seems likely) it should still be reduced to about a third of its current size.

How so, exactly?

[TrekMD]

Then, by all means, leave Wikipedia alone and concentrate on the Vectrex Wiki page.

[VectorX]

I'd at least edit it one more time and insert his pages as sources, but I'm not 100% sure those "count". I don't know much about Wikipedia and don't really care.

[desfeek]

This is incredibly annoying. Lots of people look to Wikipedia as 'the' internet encyclopedia, and without accurate information, it hinders the reliability of the website.

I am not too familiar with how Wikipedia works, but what would A Dingley do if we submitted an 'accurate' release list, with a petition from Vectrex collectors, appreciators and historians, stating when each game released, and by whom? I'm sure we could corroborate a complete list - and who could say no to the actual enthusiasts? Someone could even send him the Retro Gamer Magazine article Mayhem wrote a couple months back...

[VectorX]

Nov 19, 2012 19:27:19 GMT -5 desfeek said:

I'm sure we could corroborate a complete list

I have a few doubts about that, such as with Moon Lander (the date on the startup screen is 1997, while others [like the Vectrex Museum] say it was like 2000 or 2001), some say the same with Tsunami/Vix (i. e. conflicting dates), Nebula Commander's screen says 2005, while others have said it came out in 2004 (which could be correct for all I know), etc.

Others can definitely be knocked out (FURY's and Dondzila's stuff), but others are still a bit shaky. Hell, even Bedlam came out in 1982 or 1983, as there's different dates on the copyright screen and cart label!

[gliptitude]

Nov 19, 2012 19:27:19 GMT -5 desfeek said:

This is incredibly annoying. Lots of people look to Wikipedia as 'the' internet encyclopedia, and without accurate information, it hinders the reliability of the website.

I am not too familiar with how Wikipedia works, but what would A Dingley do if we submitted an 'accurate' release list, with a petition from Vectrex collectors, appreciators and historians, stating when each game released, and by whom? I'm sure we could corroborate a complete list - and who could say no to the actual enthusiasts? Someone could even send him the Retro Gamer Magazine article Mayhem wrote a couple months back...

Perhaps if a few of us cooperate and edit the list together, rather than George doing it (since it looks like it has mostly been him lately, and since he had the problem with Dingley), and also if we add references for the new entries ... then maybe it would stick. If it's just one person (George) so far, and Dingley has expressed skepticism, perhaps he would view it less personally if others made the same edits (and added references).

heh, but like fury mentioned in the beginning - not sure how important any of this is. It is a stupid outcome, but probably not one of much gravity. If the list survives without "War of the Worlds 2011" or "Warrior 2012" etc., but still retains the other homebrews it has long included, surely a majority of interested parties will encounter the furyunlimited website (and others) and see that games continue to be released.