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Post by fury on Feb 1, 2013 14:17:44 GMT -5
Why not continue the trend  All kidding aside.... So many people urged me just to ignore Desfeek, while others wondered why I didn't respond. I originally was just going to ignore him, but I've been urged by the administration here to respond. Also Desfeek has requested a response. My concern with this is that his motivation is most likely to keep this going and argue back and forth, which is something that I absolutely do not have the time or desire for, and I will not do it. I welcome any comments or questions from anyone, including Desfeek, who I've never really felt any anger towards. I would appreciate it if you, Desfeek, could try to conduct yourself in a way that isn't "snarky". It doesn't do anyone any good, as several other forum members have already pointed out. I think it does the most damage to you, because you reveal to other people through your posts the exact reason why I refunded you in the first place. That is not sarcasm or meant to invoke anger, rather just a point that I think would help you in future communications. It was your communication technique through emails that prompted me to refund you. It was your communication technique that caused you to lose moderator status at this forum. Also, Desfeek, I think you should stop hijacking threads. That's an extremely immature method of venting anger. The other day I responded to a very nice review from gliptitude, and you followed it up with a nasty post that had little to do with the thread. I see that you've edited the post, but your reason for editing it was because Retrocade Magazine did not want to go along with your idea that I should remove the Sundance score of B+ from my website. Just for the record, I will not remove a score from my website, regardless of who requests it. Retrocade Magazine denied your request not just for free advertising, but because it would say an awful lot about the magazine if they were to go along with something so childish. I'm quite aware of the fact that I'm late on orders, and the last thing that I want is for an angry individual to cause me any more trouble because of this. Therefore, I'm always prepared to refund an order. Usually that means someone requests a refund because they are tired of waiting. On a rare occasion I will force a refund because, even though Desfeek won't agree, I think it's the best thing for both parties. I'm really not a mean guy who treats people unfairly, and the reason why you don't have any people chiming in, is because you are only the second person in 10 years who I've forced a refund on. I'm not going to respond to every nasty comment you made because most of them, I think people understand, were just made as a way for you to be angry and vent, and I don't think that most people really take much of it seriously. One thing I will respond to is your idea that I was belittling low income people, which is completely absurd. When I asked if you were being sarcastic about your financial situation, it was a genuine question because you had been sarcastic in so many other instances. So now we know that you are a 22-year old student. I was a 22-year old college student 20 years ago with little-to-no money, living on cup-o-noodles for weeks at a time, just like many other college students. I know your situation because I lived it, just like so many other people have, so your assumption is without basis. Anyway, this message is not meant to offend, just a response. You were very offensive in your messages, but that's just not the way I want to communicate here. There are lots of other people here, and they don't want to read that kind of stuff anyway. If this response seems without much of a point, it's because your request for a response didn't have one to begin with. You have your refund. I owe you nothing. You wanted to buy the items back, then you didn't want to buy them back. You wanted me to remove a score, then you didn't want me to remove a score. So, Desfeek, if there's something else, please respond, otherwise it's time to move on. Moving on for you means not posting anti-Fury messages, not hijacking threads, not sending any additional snarky personal emails to me. Moving on for me means I hold no ill-will towards you (haven't anyway), and it also means that I get to stop posting about this subject  Best of luck to you in your studies. |
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Post by desfeek on Feb 1, 2013 15:03:56 GMT -5
Awesome! You took some time to respond! THAT was the point of my previous threads. You, taking the time to possibly iron out any customer service issues, instead of trying to ignore them. It was your communication technique through emails that prompted me to refund you. It was your communication technique that caused you to lose moderator status at this forum. As Darryl has previously stated, my demotion is just a temporary thing. Also, I predicted this would happen, and am not too broken up about it. I considered deleting my account and leaving these forums forever at a certain point, because it felt as if administration and most members were ganging up on me. The other day I responded to a very nice review from gliptitude, and you followed it up with a nasty post that had little to do with the thread. I see that you've edited the post, but your reason for editing it was because Retrocade Magazine did not want to go along with your idea that I should remove the Sundance score of B+ from my website. Just for the record, I will not remove a score from my website, regardless of who requests it. I did not edit that post, and wish Darryl had not censored me. I again predicted that Retrocade Magazine would not want the score to be removed, and told Rob I would rescind my request if he had a problem with it. Just for the record - I was a little generous with that B+ score. The arcade cabinet backstory and your brilliant control work-around impress me more than the actual game. On a rare occasion I will force a refund because, even though Desfeek won't agree, I think it's the best thing for both parties. Going back to the first post I made on this subject: why? I'm really not a mean guy who treats people unfairly, and the reason why you don't have any people chiming in, is because you are only the second person in 10 years who I've forced a refund on. You should see MY inbox...Part of the reason I have kept going is the (anonymous) support I have. The reason you don't see people chiming in are because they don't want you to get mad and refund their games. I'm not going to respond to every nasty comment you made because most of them, I think people understand, were just made as a way for you to be angry and vent, and I don't think that most people really take much of it seriously. I would honestly like to see all these 'nasty' comments I made. I have responded to almost every line you have typed on the subject, you make general references to my "being nasty". You were very offensive in your messages, but that's just not the way I want to communicate here. Well, I have been very offended by just about every condescending, dismissive post you've posted. So whether or not you want to communicate offensively here, you have. If this response seems without much of a point, it's because your request for a response didn't have one to begin with. You have your refund. I owe you nothing. You wanted to buy the items back, then you didn't want to buy them back. You wanted me to remove a score, then you didn't want me to remove a score. So, Desfeek, if there's something else, please respond, otherwise it's time to move on. Moving on for you means not posting anti-Fury messages, not hijacking threads, not sending any additional snarky personal emails to me. Moving on for me means I hold no ill-will towards you (haven't anyway), and it also means that I get to stop posting about this subject Best of luck to you in your studies. I wanted to buy the items back, you posted your most offensive post, so I doubled-back. I wanted you to remove the scores, Rob preferred it differently, so I retracted my request. Move on? I mean, if you hold no ill-will, then can we just renegotiate the original purchase, like what should have happened Monday night? Best of luck to you in your studies. And you, with your projects! |
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Post by fury on Feb 1, 2013 15:57:15 GMT -5
Desfeek, I responded to your complaints already. I don't know what you're talking about now, saying that I didn't respond. Some responses can be found in two of your threads. Is it that you're not getting the response that you want? If you're wondering why I stopped responding to your emails, it's because they've only become more and more offensive. I'm not going to respond to that. "Going back to the first post I made on this subject: why?" I answered in my previous post: I'm quite aware of the fact that I'm late on orders, and the last thing that I want is for an angry individual to cause me any more trouble because of this. Therefore, I'm always prepared to refund an order. Usually that means someone requests a refund because they are tired of waiting. On a rare occasion I will force a refund because, even though Desfeek won't agree, I think it's the best thing for both parties. So I'll elaborate... It's best for both parties, because with buyer and seller aggravated, it's the quickest/simplest solution. It's difficult to have an angry buyer. Much easier to have an angry ex-buyer, who should be somewhat less angry because he has his money back. I've just described what a refund is. Regarding your moderator status... Your demotion is totally up to Darryl, that's correct. The fact is that I wasn't warned about my behavior on this forum because my behavior didn't warrant it. Yours did. Regarding supportive emails/messages... I'm glad that you're getting anonymous support. I haven't received any anonymous support, that's very true And what I was referring to was people chiming in saying "Desfeek is correct, George is evil, he forced a refund on me too." You won't see that. "Just for the record - I was a little generous with that B+ score." That's showing me! Why don't you just say, "You're a bad man..you're a very bad man!" You asked "What nasty comments?!!!!!!!!!" Other people have remarked about your offensive comments here, so please don't act like you haven't made any. You've also sent similar comments in emails. "False rarity" comes to mind. That's a nasty comment against me and what my motives are, and it also happens to be a complete lie. There are probably a dozen more in the threads you've made. Why don't you go re-read them and try very hard to see it from another person's viewpoint for once. "Move on? I mean, if you hold no ill-will, then can we just renegotiate the original purchase, like what should have happened Monday night?" Here we go again... "I do not see what is so confusing, but I now politely retract my offer." That was the end of our dealings. Read more: vectorgaming.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=vectrex&action=display&thread=535#ixzz2JgJmILqY |
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Post by desfeek on Feb 1, 2013 16:16:06 GMT -5
Once again, you won't see anyone else speak up (to agree with me) out of fear of you refunding their games.
I'm done. The worst I've said is that I don't think you are a very nice guy. People can read everything I wrote and judge for themselves just how critical I have been. Every email I sent you, I also dictated here on the forums - I am hiding absolutely nothing. I have said my piece, and I think the people are familiar with the situation, so I'm done.
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Post by fury on Feb 1, 2013 16:31:46 GMT -5
Nope, you're lying right now. You've sent additional emails to me with other rude comments.
It's funny you say that people fear getting a refund after I explain to you that I've only handed out 2 refunds like this in 10 years. Sounds like more lies to me. There are over 1000 unique buyers who have never once received a refund from me. Nice try though. I welcome ANYONE to post anything here regarding this issue, and I guarantee you that I will not refund you. It's a load of bs, desfeek.
"I'm done"
That's what we've all been waiting for. Darryl I hope this worked out for you. I'm glad that everything has been addressed.
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Post by VectorX on Feb 1, 2013 19:58:46 GMT -5
^As long as this doesn't go back and forth any more on here, then I guess it is. I didn't really want this on here as it was, but I'm not going to delete this either. As Darryl has previously stated, my demotion is just a temporary thing. Plus you had offered it first anyway (I don't know if you saw where I said I didn't see it at first or else I wouldn't have said it like it was the first time). I did not edit that post, and wish Darryl had not censored me. It was a thread hijacking. If you don't agree with me, also wyldephang, sj, gliptitude, fury, AND a fifth member on top of that all agreed that's what it was (I'm not stating who it is since they sent it to me in a PM), and most of those individuals (possibly all, which I'll admit I'm not going to comb through several of my last PMs right now, but I can look later if you want) asked for me to also delete your comment (just a few posts after the hijacking one) of "You're completely correct. I am looking for a response from George. While you four are content pretending this Vectrex community is idyllic and wonderful, I will not stand down to George. I will not be quiet while he treats people the way he does." I just told everyone to just ignore it, so I could have deleted that one too, as popular vote wanted, but didn't. And your first post was still viewable from the people who quoted it anyway, as I didn't edit those subsequent posts. |
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Post by gliptitude on Feb 2, 2013 1:24:41 GMT -5
I think desfeek really wanted to partake in the Fury experience. A small misstep on his part cost him the opportunity to ever play Warrior and he became extremely inflamed. The ensuing exchange made it impossible for he and George to ever do business with each other again.
It is very difficult for me to imagine a productive outcome to this turn of events. Desfeek is now motivated to assail the Fury Unlimited name, ad nauseam, and George is motivated to spend his time addressing these complaints, even though there is really no way for him to rectify the situation anymore. Either way, desfeek doesn't get Warrior and George doesn't quell this bad publicity.
It seems doubtful to me that anyone has even learned anything in this episode.
desfeek gets the short end of the stick, but George doesn't really win either. It's pretty much a waste.
I spent over an hour writing this (!), so you could say that I lose too.
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Post by celtroniclabs on Feb 2, 2013 4:25:22 GMT -5
I think this is the HEAVIEST set of threads I have ever read on this forum.. All over a remake of Skelly's old Warrior game.. Much like the game, the disagreement turned into a battle on here. A battle regarding a game about two warriors fighting to the death.. "Your sword will turn him to dust", or something like that.
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Post by sj on Feb 2, 2013 11:55:13 GMT -5
and George doesn't quell this bad publicity. All publicity is good publicity. All it highlights is that Fury Unlimited is a one man operation done for the love of the Vectrex. He's not Mattell or Sony or Nintendo with a huge P.R. department he's just a guy with a hobby. If you don't want to wait. Don't buy. If you didn't expect to wait. Get a refund. Seems to me if you paid your money months ago you've probably forgot the outlay anyway and when the game turns up it's a bonus. George. Now there's a spare copy can I have it for free? As long as I don't have to wait. |
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Post by gliptitude on Feb 2, 2013 12:23:02 GMT -5
I think this is the HEAVIEST set of threads I have ever read on this forum.. All over a remake of Skelly's old Warrior game.. Much like the game, the disagreement turned into a battle on here. A battle regarding a game about two warriors fighting to the death.. "Your sword will turn him to dust", or something like that. Ha ha ha ha ha. Seems to me if you paid your money months ago you've probably forgot the outlay anyway and when the game turns up it's a bonus. That's pretty much how I feel. ... That the program has at least been completed and shipped to lower serial numbers is some consolation also. The video Fury posted of the game has helped tide me over. George. Now there's a spare copy can I have it for free? As long as I don't have to wait. Hey, I would PAY for desfeek's spot in line, and still keep my own. I'm sure he's ahead of me and I could handle owning 2 copies. ... And really, if he ever changed his mind about Fury Unlimited, I would happily sell him his old copy at cost. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2013 20:50:45 GMT -5
Looking at the recent posts, I have the feeling that people start to go back to business as usual or at least try to. This is good and really needed. Topics and posts like the ones we had in the recent days are not fun to read and must not become standard.
Before leaning back I want to summarize my impressions and would like to know and discuss what we can learn from this dispute. I confess that I write as an anonymous user.
# What happened so far...
Desfeek's e-mail to Fury was perhaps a bit demanding. The money refund after waiting many months without any warning must have been a slap into the face of Desfeek. Imagine it was you who's Warrior order was canceled. What would you think and say? I think that was a bad and mean step of Fury.
Desfeek's posting about the refund at all was not a perfect idea either; on the other hand I can understand and even support that such business manners are made public as a warning to other people. And what else could Desfeek have done?
Very soon, the initial posts turned into a bad mud-wrestling. At first Fury did not react in a fair way by even challenging Desfeek in various ways and culminating in the statement "to get rid of you". Then, it was Desfeek who went too far, writing "a not so nice guy" and trying to get his Sundance review removed.
# What can we learn from this?
I wonder and would like to discuss a bit: What can we learn from this dispute?
- A refund is not fair business
Some people think that making a refund instead of delivering is o.k.. It's not. For a deciated collector a cancellation of an order is a minor disaster. And it's not o.k. even for a one-man company. There are some rules that are expected in life and business life. We are not in cowboy land where everyone can set his/her own rules. I'd expect any developer to act in those certain natural rules, otherwise these special manners should be made public and each person then can decide whether he/she wants to accept these special rules and continue business with that developer.
- Public info about shipment status
Naturally, delays in shipment are unwanted, but I think they are accepted by all buyers. While normal business rules should apply, they cannot be applied in respects of release date and shipment. Here, one really has to take into account that the remaining Vectrex developers are one-man shows: Typically there's no additional man-power (except the family or friends) and in case of disease, there is standstill in the production line.
Such delays are much more acceptable if people know about the delay or even the reasons behind it. I don't ask Vectrex developers to write about their whole personal life (would be interesting, though). But an info here in this forum and/or on their website telling what the status of shipment is and/or which copies have currently shipped would help a lot and even save time and nerves on both buyers and sellers ends. Perhaps this can be implemented for the Warrior shipment.
Personally, I do trust mail to be delivered safely and reliably, but what happens if the unlikely happens and a parcel is lost and remains undelivered? Without an appropriate info you might wait months till you notice at all.
- Offenses in a forum are no-nos; but can happen
At first it was Fury and later it was Desfeek who communicated and acted badly. The forums are not a dreamland, yes, but bad personal feelings and even antipathy should not find their way into a forum. If it does happen it's not that nice, but hey, we still can learn something about each other from this. E.g. I appreciate very much the suggestions and effort of some forum members like gliptitude to solve this dispute in a fair and reasonable way. This dispute and discussion is not the end of this forum and it's nothing more than a dispute between two forum members. Again: Such disputes must be the exception, otherwise there's something wrong with the (forum) community.
I hope that my above thoughts lead to a constructive discussion or even no discussion. And I wish and hope that both Fury and Desfeek continue here and outside this forum in a fair and respectful way.
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Post by VectorX on Feb 2, 2013 21:01:56 GMT -5
Looking at the recent posts, I have the feeling that people start to go back to business as usual or at least try to. This is good and really needed. Topics and posts like the ones we had in the recent days are not fun to read and must not become standard. I doubt they will be. As stated before, this was the only [set of] fight on here ever in nearly a year and a half of existence of this forum and over 6,000 posts. Even a gun control topic in the General area didn't result in any heated exchanges.
Again: Such disputes must be the exception
They have been so far.
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Post by fury on Feb 2, 2013 21:28:31 GMT -5
Vective, the biggest problem with your post for peace is that your other post looked like this: "George doesn't like if people criticize him, his products, or his processes. And sometimes he even takes measurements. People have to cope with this." Read more: vectorgaming.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=vectrex&action=display&thread=532&page=1#ixzz2Jna6A5NgSo it's really hard to even bother responding to your points when it's clear that you have some kind of motive here, anonymously at that. I would like to know when I didn't deliver on a product to you, not including Warrior and other products that are still shipping out. |
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Post by sj on Feb 3, 2013 4:40:32 GMT -5
I confess that I write as an anonymous user. ...and why do you feel the need to hide? |
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Post by ledzep on Feb 3, 2013 7:20:15 GMT -5
If I my contribute a few observations - Desfeek's e-mail to Fury was perhaps a bit demanding. The money refund after waiting many months without any warning must have been a slap into the face of Desfeek. Imagine it was you who's Warrior order was canceled. What would you think and say? I think that was a bad and mean step of Fury. What would I think and say? I wouldn't have been aggressive and attacking with the email. I don't know George but I've bought stuff from him before. I was lucky enough to get an early Warrior cart. I brought up to him that the overlay was sized a bit off and fell out of the Vectrex (too flimsy). What does he do? He sends me a fix, it's not quite right, he sends me another fix! That's not the act of a d*ck. Further, after I told him that the calibration on the game didn't work on my Vectrex (because it is really off) he sends me a replacement with an improved calibration... and then sends me another one because the code for the calibration was slightly incomplete (the settings would have to be redone after every game). He's always been very responsive in emails, tolerates my suggestions/hopes for future games, if he's a jerk I can't find any evidence to support that view. And let's be clear here, writing his complaints in the manner and language he did, Desfeek had warning that this might happen, it would be predictable that any homebrewer would have little tolerance for that. Desfeek's posting about the refund at all was not a perfect idea either; on the other hand I can understand and even support that such business manners are made public as a warning to other people. And what else could Desfeek have done? He could have been patient. I mean it would be one thing if there were a few similar viewpoints about how Fury Unlimited the company operates. I've never heard that sort of thing here or on other forums. So what, George could be a jerk who's good at covering his tracks, an evil genius who has created Fury to sell Vectrex games in order to frustrate consumers into losing patience with him. The simpler explanation, based on reports from people receiving games or controllers and being satisfied by them, is that the guy fell behind on shipments. - Offenses in a forum are no-nos; but can happen At first it was Fury and later it was Desfeek who communicated and acted badly. The forums are not a dreamland, yes, but bad personal feelings and even antipathy should not find their way into a forum. If it does happen it's not that nice, but hey, we still can learn something about each other from this. E.g. I appreciate very much the suggestions and effort of some forum members like gliptitude to solve this dispute in a fair and reasonable way. This dispute and discussion is not the end of this forum and it's nothing more than a dispute between two forum members. Again: Such disputes must be the exception, otherwise there's something wrong with the (forum) community. I would say it is a bit more than just a dispute between two forum members, it's also a dispute between a consumer and a businessman and like it or not that changes things. If George says nothing then it's silent agreement with Desfeek's publicly-presented accusations and maybe he loses customers or reputation because of them. Can't have that if they're not accurate. This is like yelling at the waiter before you get your food, that is a bad move. At the least Desfeek should have waited until he'd gotten his game and whatever else he wanted and then let loose because the bottom line is there's no evidence that Fury Unlimited actually stiffs customers. I, and others, have been waiting for years for Keithen (and others) to finish completing Tempest for the Atari 5200. Many, many delays. I could see someone getting impatient and mouthing off on one of the AtariAge threads about it. But to what end? Maybe the programmer gets so annoyed by badgering or complaints that he says to hell with it, I've got more important things to do? Well, it's finally done and I finally got to order it! But, they're redoing the manuals (printing mishap) so I'll have to wait two more weeks. Well, I've waited this long, haven't I? |
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Best of luck to you in your studies.
