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Post by gliptitude on May 1, 2014 14:14:23 GMT -5
Nm
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Post by xefned on May 6, 2014 13:48:17 GMT -5
This is bewildering news to me!  I've openly requested roms for spinner-hacked Bedlam and OCD even in threads that Chris has participated in without even a hint that it was not OK. Looking back, I probably made you grumble without realizing it. Sorry about that. FWIW, I'm positive this is not a case of multi-cart producers acting in bad faith. I know Sean Kelly and Madtronix are respectful men and strong supporters of the community. This misunderstanding is simply a PR problem. To that end, I think somebody needs to say it for you, loud and clear, so here is my faux news release and a personal commitment that I will purchase proper copies of OCD and Spinnerama if they become available. Looking forward to your new games! |
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Kangsteri
Vector Runner
Opinions not allowed here. Except for Vectrex programming gods.
Posts: 16 
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Post by Kangsteri on Jul 17, 2014 22:35:05 GMT -5
What is it with game programmers?
Are they all greedy and cheap simple people who dont have any respect for law and actually pay for people to test the games and register the products properly to get them for sale, or do i just feel like it?
I have suffered from copyright issues 15 years now (i remix music), and when i get back in to gaming to have some fun, i see the same thing here by this christophertumber dude.
Seems like you dont understand how the internet works. You cant put something out here and expect that people dont use the information. Thats why companys dont keep the share holder- / development meetings in public chat forums. You dont own anything you make, if you dont register it first.
And you need to register it in all different continents. After 5 years you need to start paying for the rights yearly. So i can make "christophertumber sucks" multicarts and you can only bitch for it. Homebrews are not automatically protected by any law. Its not considered as a proper official game if you slap your sticker on there and cut some nice box and do only 10 of them, for your friends. "Copyright protection is automatic, there is no requirement under copyright law to post notices anywhere", this clame is total bullsh*t.
The community can see and respect the real maker of game, but under law this doesnt count anything if you dont pay for registering the game.
This noncense has just kept growing since Nikola Tesla days. I am completely against all copyrights and patents. And i dont like how Christophertumber openly disses Madtronics work (and my hobby). Specially after all Madronics has done for the community. In my account christophertumbers work couldnt ever even compare that. And still he acts like his games was the thing that sold all the Madtronics multicarts.
I could somehow understand it if you would sell the games himself. But even then i dont think the multicartmoney would be out of your pocket. Collectors will buy the original game anyway if they can. Or are only the people with sd/usb carts the chosen ones to qualify to play your golden games?
I personally have seen that all copyrights and patents are only against individuals nowdays. And they help only rich people who can buy out competition. These old farts and has beens just slow down the evolution of human kind. Dont publish your games if you dont want people to play them.
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Post by woolfman on Jul 18, 2014 1:45:44 GMT -5
What is it with game programmers? Are they all greedy and cheap simple people who dont have any respect for law and actually pay for people to test the games and register the products properly to get them for sale, or do i just feel like it? I have suffered from copyright issues 15 years now (i remix music), and when i get back in to gaming to have some fun, i see the same thing here by this christophertumber dude. Seems like you dont understand how the internet works. You cant put something out here and expect that people dont use the information. Thats why companys dont keep the share holder- / development meetings in public chat forums. You dont own anything you make, if you dont register it first. And you need to register it in all different continents. After 5 years you need to start paying for the rights yearly. So i can make "christophertumber sucks" multicarts and you can only bitch for it. Homebrews are not automatically protected by any law. Its not considered as a proper official game if you slap your sticker on there and cut some nice box and do only 10 of them, for your friends. "Copyright protection is automatic, there is no requirement under copyright law to post notices anywhere", this clame is total bullsh*t. The community can see and respect the real maker of game, but under law this doesnt count anything if you dont pay for registering the game. This noncense has just kept growing since Nikola Tesla days. I am completely against all copyrights and patents. And i dont like how Christophertumber openly disses Madtronics work (and my hobby). Specially after all Madronics has done for the community. In my account christophertumbers work couldnt ever even compare that. And still he acts like his games was the thing that sold all the Madtronics multicarts. I could somehow understand it if you would sell the games himself. But even then i dont think the multicartmoney would be out of your pocket. Collectors will buy the original game anyway if they can. Or are only the people with sd/usb carts the chosen ones to qualify to play your golden games? I personally have seen that all copyrights and patents are only against individuals nowdays. And they help only rich people who can buy out competition. These old farts and has beens just slow down the evolution of human kind. Dont publish your games if you dont want people to play them. I totally agree with you. Well said, ´nuff said. |
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Post by christophertumber on Jul 18, 2014 10:21:38 GMT -5
Yeah, this kind of willfully ignorant post is why I left this thread and I'm not particularly interested in trying to educate someone who's just admitted that even 15 years isn't enough for him to get a clue. But I will comment on this: You cant put something out here and expect that people dont use the information. Obviously, you're right and I need to face a harsh reality I've been denying since the late 90's. Despite how great the community is as a whole, there are simply too many people in this hobby like you. So I shall join all the other Vectrex developers who do not make final binaries public and I will no longer post them either. And hey, at least now we know what all your trolling is about. |
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Post by VectorX on Jul 18, 2014 10:43:11 GMT -5
I have suffered from copyright issues 15 years now I am completely against all copyrights and patents. Your argument is a bit confused when you try to state about copyright law and then it sounds like you're against it in the same post. Laws also vary by country, as Hulu's a great resource when you miss an episode of your favorite tv show initially, but then you can watch it on there (depending on if the original airing network allows it) or if you got hooked on some show from 40 years ago. However, you can only access it if you live here in the States, due to various copyright laws and the like. And supposedly copyright law is so strict in Ireland you can't even listen to a cd on a plane even if you own that cd! However, I'll admit I've only read this online from several places, so it might not be true, but even so, that's nuts and doesn't apply to those of us here in the States. What is it with game programmers? The same can be said with "what is it with you music people?" too. Although unstated, it seems to me (feel free to correct if I'm wrong) you have boundaries as well. If Chris or any other homebrewer doesn't want their stuff put on multicarts, they don't have to. And I don't mean if their copyright(s) expires and then it/they becomes public domain...or is that even right? I have several years' legal experience, but none of it covers copyright law, I've just always hated it whenever someone states something about law that's wrong and I correct them (especially since it tends to get passed around). And even if you state that that kind of thing is correct, again, laws may vary by country, and that doesn't cover the other aspect of it if a programmers' personal wishes for it is not to be distributed anyway, even if, by law, a copyright expires, someone could indeed put it on a multicart (again, I'm assuming...). What if there was something you did with a music mix and someone did something with it you didn't wish them to do, even if copyright law was followed or they found a loophole in that law? |
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Post by gauze on Jul 18, 2014 11:54:01 GMT -5
as a music person who has had actual unauthorized physical products made of their works (cds, records, t-shirts, patches, badges, etc) I see chris's point on multicarts. I personally don't care if someone downloads our music but when they step over the line of making and selling something that is much less of a grey area.
But, you do come off a little heavy handed sometimes, chris. This is a hobby and not a business to most of us.
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Post by VECTREXER on Jul 18, 2014 12:14:13 GMT -5
The people attitudes like Kangsteri are the reason regulations and laws were created. A lack of respect for author's rights and boundaries along with a mentality of "you talked about it, now it belongs to all of us" just sucks.
As far as pulling in Madtronics to justify your argument you may want to research a bit more. While he may have initially include Chris T's. work on his multi-cart, later he had the respect to remove it when it became clear Chris did not generally authorize inclusion of all of his works.
As far as shareholder meetings go do think there are not reporters in the crowds? Do think those people are there uninvited? Berkshire Hathaway loves the press. So do many other large and small companies. have a look at printed word. Have a look at the streaming sessions available for shareholder meetings. Your argument stands on thin air here. So does the argument about software development. Sure there are companies who develop privately for some reason or another. But there are also MANY companies who open source their software. Open source does not mean free to use. But I would guess that might not be the way you see it.
Pulling in Nikola Tesla is also a lame thing to do. Tesla realized the value of patents. Go look up the many patents he has. He would have probably realized the need for new regulations and laws around copyrights and patents in the current day. Certainly in his own there was a need as evidenced with his competition.
As for remixing you definitely have an option to license music. And for not that much money. I know this from prior involvement with private and public performances, as well as music inclusion in other products for sale. The moment you make one dime from any new compilations or performances your ass is on the line. But not only your own but also the people and place you work with also risk suits and fines if performance and sales royalties run unpaid. Let's put this another way, should the people whose music you use watch everything that you do in order to make sure that you and people who might play your remixes seem unlikely to respect author's rights and/or percentages from sales of performances and download/disc sales? Would you like it if every artist or their associate were physically standing over you with a sword at hand ready slice off you head when you did n't pay them, or if you use their works in way they do authorize?
In the end I would rather have author's, artists, and other creator rights respected without the need to draconian laws. But when required I would like another way out of a conflict rather than personally taking a club to the head of the individual or group violating those rights.
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Post by christophertumber on Jul 18, 2014 12:39:23 GMT -5
as a music person who has had actual unauthorized physical products made of their works (cds, records, t-shirts, patches, badges, etc) I see chris's point on multicarts. I personally don't care if someone downloads our music but when they step over the line of making and selling something that is much less of a grey area. Thank you. That is exactly my point. But, you do come off a little heavy handed sometimes, chris. This is a hobby and not a business to most of us. Fair enough but please understand from my perspective. This has absolutely nothing to do with business or money. This is something I have been dealing with my entire time in the Vectrex community. It was a huge issue the first go 'round, including a massive argument on the old rec.games.vectrex newsgroup and dozens of eBay auction takedowns (though eBay was mostly ROM CDs and DVDs). Then I got into the Atari 2600 scene (where this was never an issue, btw) for a while and eventually drifted away from retro entirely. Fast forward several years and a bunch of Facebook activity (VectrexRoli in particular) draws me back in. I start poking around my old half-finished projects and thinking of new projects. And yeah, this is fun again and I'm enjoying coding assembly language. Then, only a week later and, "Damn!" here it is again. I just can't escape it. And it's probably been going on the whole time I've been away. I have to deal with this all over again. This is supposed to be fun. This is supposed to be a hobby. Instead it's a big PITA. So, yeah, absolutely I was pissed off. And disappointed. And discouraged. So I ignore this thread. I stick only with productive threads - about my projects, or other developer's projects, or helping people in the dev forums. And then months later, I'm being trolled by some random who's done nothing for or in the community. So, yeah, frankly, I don't need any of this crap in my life. Obviously I am a little bit delusional and I need to stop fighting against reality. Most Vectrex developers deal with it in one of two ways. They either release stuff, sometimes explicitly placing it in the public domain like Chris S, and don't care what other people do with it. Or, those who do care, simply never release final binaries and especially source code. I've always thought that was unfortunate, particularly once production cartridges sell out, but also because I think "try before you buy" is quite helpful. And I've tried to take a middle way by making my stuff available while hoping the community would respect boundaries and not abuse that. Clearly that's an unrealistic expectation on my part and I won't fight it anymore. |
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Post by VectorX on Jul 18, 2014 12:48:26 GMT -5
Or, those who do care, simply never release final binaries and especially source code. I've always thought that was unfortunate, particularly once production cartridges sell out, but also because I think "try before you buy" is quite helpful. VecCaves/Spike's Spree comes to mind, with less than 100 being released (I think), no ROM available, and there's barely anything that can be found about those games at all (barely a YouTube video, I've never seen a review of it, etc.). Mark said he might eventually come up with more copies of it, but here over 10 years later the majority of us are empty-handed. |
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Post by 50tbrd on Jul 18, 2014 13:14:49 GMT -5
Yes, unfortunately, your games rarely come up for auction, so its nice that the binaries are available for download.
VeCaves is a tragic case. I've heard that its good too. While there are 2 videos available for VeCaves, I've not seen one for Spike's Spree. I thought the same of the Vectorzoa games and Mail Plane, but thankful the issue was remedied.
I really think there should be a charge to download the games, free if you own it like CDs. Something Richard Chadd has talked about on the FB page.
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Post by vectrexrc on Jul 18, 2014 16:19:21 GMT -5
it takes hours to write a vectrex game. the programmers got have to have option to be remunerated for their efforts. but if the programmer wants to make it publicly available for free that is their choice - not someone else's. ownership of published works (including software) always remains with the author - you are granted permission to use the software (usually). see terms of licence.
to say "you cant put something out here and expect that people don't use the information." is ignorant.
a bin file is not "information" it is a finish product.
published source code online would be different matter - but any self respecting programmer using other peoples code as is would at least ask for permission and give credit.
if you want a game and not willing to get it by legal methods then spend the time to learn and program yourself a version. once you spend the time and effort maybe you would have a different opinion.
i think that post by "Kangsteri" is ignorant trolling. seriously the last thing any real vectrex fan would want to do is publicly insult the morals of homebrewers that are helping to keep the machine current. what a twat!
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Post by vectrexrc on Jul 18, 2014 16:30:49 GMT -5
i am just sad to read that post - really would someone be so delusional to think all software should be free?! is he a finnish marxist?
i guess all property is theft really right? :/
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Post by VECTREXER on Jul 19, 2014 16:35:02 GMT -5
I do think the try-before-buy binaries are an excellent alternative. What Der Luchs is doing on that point is a great example of games that are free. But also have the potential to be paid in the future with other versions that remove that remove the "Free" information screens.
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Post by vectrexrc on Jul 19, 2014 18:27:18 GMT -5
i assume Der Luchs will eventually make a compilation cart.
i don't think anyone could expect someone to spend years writing a game of the quality of Vectrexians or Vector Pilot and "give it away" for free. Of course a promotional restricted version would be good marketing to release as a "free" bin but the copyright would still remain with the author and the author could insist on certain restrictions on distribution (eg. inclusion on commercial multicarts etc).
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